http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU
Discussion points:
TSE's obvious similarities to Wallace Shawn's character.
Discussion points:
TSE's obvious similarities to Wallace Shawn's character.
Last edited Jul 11, 2008 09:24:05
The Strategy Expert
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I am soo like this guy in real life, except far wiser, much smoother, and more handsome. 
He's a guy that just thinks he has infallible logic, whereas I actually do. That character would get destroyed by me in a battle of the wits, just as he got destroyed by Cary Elwes' character.
He's a guy that just thinks he has infallible logic, whereas I actually do. That character would get destroyed by me in a battle of the wits, just as he got destroyed by Cary Elwes' character.
Judan
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Originally posted by The Strategy Expert
I am soo like this guy in real life, except far wiser, much smoother, and more handsome.
He's a guy that just thinks he has infallible logic, whereas I actually do. That character would get destroyed by me in a battle of the wits, just as he got destroyed by Cary Elwes' character.
LOL
I am soo like this guy in real life, except far wiser, much smoother, and more handsome.
He's a guy that just thinks he has infallible logic, whereas I actually do. That character would get destroyed by me in a battle of the wits, just as he got destroyed by Cary Elwes' character.
LOL
The Strategy Expert
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Well see, in the world of logic, the cardinal rule is you cannot ASSUME information that is not given. He made all kinds of assumptions and thus he already had a compromised decision making process before his first deductive thought even took place.
The Rut
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You know... I almost commented on this exact same thing the other day. He soooooooo reminds me of that exact character. Even the fact that he is arguing about how the character's reasoning is flawed cracks me up. Good post.
The Strategy Expert
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Well it kind of bugs me, because the concept of the character is supposed to be this logical genius yet he overlooks the very simplest rules of logic, so the whole scene while admittedly entertaining, I find it insulting to my intelligence.
Here's an analogy, let's say you know a guy who is a mathematics genius, a rocket scientist we'll just say. And we give him the following story problem:
Jack has 2 apples, and Jill has 2 apples. If Jack takes both apples from Jill, then how many apples does....(INTERRUPTION by the math genius) I KNOW THE ANSWER! It's 4 apples!!
Well wait a minute pal, how do you know I was going to ask how many Jack has? Maybe I was going to ask how many Jill has? Where do you get off giving an answer when I didn't even give you the mathematical operator?? It could be a plus sign OR a negative sign. Why are you combining numbers when you don't even know the operators??
A math genius knows when you have two 2's, you don't just instinctively jumble them together and do anything with them, you have to know the operator! I mean does he design rocket engines this way with any random operator that he happens to be in the mood for at the moment? Does he just divide, or multiply, or add or subtract, without giving any care to what the instructions might be?
The answer is no, because no math genius would just take 2 random numbers and have any idea what to do with them, he would never make that mistake because it doesn't make any sense why he would start fooling with 2 naked numbers and no operators.
Back to the movie, now that's how I look at logic, therefore to me, the scene is not believable, I flat out don't buy it. Because that character, according to his logic, it would be virtually impossible for him to fail step 1 before going through step 2-20, it just doesn't make sense within the context of the character.
Here's an analogy, let's say you know a guy who is a mathematics genius, a rocket scientist we'll just say. And we give him the following story problem:
Jack has 2 apples, and Jill has 2 apples. If Jack takes both apples from Jill, then how many apples does....(INTERRUPTION by the math genius) I KNOW THE ANSWER! It's 4 apples!!
Well wait a minute pal, how do you know I was going to ask how many Jack has? Maybe I was going to ask how many Jill has? Where do you get off giving an answer when I didn't even give you the mathematical operator?? It could be a plus sign OR a negative sign. Why are you combining numbers when you don't even know the operators??
A math genius knows when you have two 2's, you don't just instinctively jumble them together and do anything with them, you have to know the operator! I mean does he design rocket engines this way with any random operator that he happens to be in the mood for at the moment? Does he just divide, or multiply, or add or subtract, without giving any care to what the instructions might be?
The answer is no, because no math genius would just take 2 random numbers and have any idea what to do with them, he would never make that mistake because it doesn't make any sense why he would start fooling with 2 naked numbers and no operators.
Back to the movie, now that's how I look at logic, therefore to me, the scene is not believable, I flat out don't buy it. Because that character, according to his logic, it would be virtually impossible for him to fail step 1 before going through step 2-20, it just doesn't make sense within the context of the character.
Last edited Jul 11, 2008 13:09:08
Mailstrom
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He didn't assume anything, what he did was probe for information initially to read the guys face. His banter was to confuse, hoping for a reaction. When this didn't work, cleverly, he switches the glasses and waited for his opponent to drink before he did.
How did this insulte your intellegence? You definatly make me laugh sometimes. The flaw in most cases for the "genius", is that he assumes he is smarter than his opponent. Thats the only mistake he made and the same one you are currently making.
How did this insulte your intellegence? You definatly make me laugh sometimes. The flaw in most cases for the "genius", is that he assumes he is smarter than his opponent. Thats the only mistake he made and the same one you are currently making.
The Strategy Expert
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LOL
Well first of all get your story straight, you first say he didn't assume anything, then you admit he assumes he's smarter. Your a dead man before you even finish your own post before you and I even start to poor the wine!
He assumes he is smarter.
He assumes that the guy is giving him fair and unbiased info on the poison.
He assumes he puts it in one glass, no more, no less.
Watch the scene again, the whole game is initiated by Cary Elwes with the poison, he explains what the poison is and it's danger, and the bald guy just ASSUMES he's giving him full and complete information regarding the poison. It's not like the bald guy said oh ok fair enough I'm a chemist and I'm an expert on that substance, he doesn't know anything about this substance, I could give you 100 examples of things that could have been a downfall to that guy by assuming what he did assume.
MAYBE, it's not a poison, maybe it has a physical affect that makes you hard to move but this guy has experience at being able to tough threw it so he can have the upperhand when the guys' arm chokes up on the blade.
MAYBE it's a sedative, and it makes them both fall asleep, and the guy knows he has a tendency to sleep less than others or maybe he just got over an 8 hour nap 5 minutes ago and has a higher probability of waking up.
I could give you a 100 other maybes, but the bald guy doesnt give any second thought to the given information and the fact that the givens might be biased. There is no way ANY man that I have ever met that has any sense of logic anywhere near a reasonably impressive level of logic or wit that would take that fully for face value and just fall into assuming that 100 possibly maybe's aren't maybes, it just completely idiotic to think that a smart logical witted man would just blindly assume away like that.
THIRD, he assumes the guy puts it in one glass, why does he assume that?? The guy hides what he's doing.
DUH ELEMENTARY LOGIC HERE!! DUHHHHH
You have 2 glasses, he only has 3 options here!!!!!
1) He put it in 1 glass
2) He put in 2 glasses
3) He put in neither glass
So the game begins, and it doesnt even occur to baldy to know how many glasses are part of the game and the givens?? That's ASININE. No logic man or highly witted man wouldnt think to wonder which combination of 1,2 or none are we playing with, WTF??
This is why it's insulting to my intelligence.
Forget the probing, the probing is 100% irrelevant, we don't even know what the game is or what the ground rules are. The very essence of logic is starting with some actual parameters, and there is no reason for him to think he has established any parameters of any kind with any credibility. It's completely preposterous.
The IDEA for the scene is funny. But, they could have just as easily made a battle of wits between the 2 men, and at least adhered to a few core things that didn't completely insult my intelligence into believing that this could actually happen if you ran into a forest and encountered an evil witted genius.
The problem here is the script writer was not a real logical genius. They should have had a logic expert review that scene content FIRST whether to proofread it or write up his own dialogue, then shot the scene, so that it could be executed to reasonable standards.
Well first of all get your story straight, you first say he didn't assume anything, then you admit he assumes he's smarter. Your a dead man before you even finish your own post before you and I even start to poor the wine!
He assumes he is smarter.
He assumes that the guy is giving him fair and unbiased info on the poison.
He assumes he puts it in one glass, no more, no less.
Watch the scene again, the whole game is initiated by Cary Elwes with the poison, he explains what the poison is and it's danger, and the bald guy just ASSUMES he's giving him full and complete information regarding the poison. It's not like the bald guy said oh ok fair enough I'm a chemist and I'm an expert on that substance, he doesn't know anything about this substance, I could give you 100 examples of things that could have been a downfall to that guy by assuming what he did assume.
MAYBE, it's not a poison, maybe it has a physical affect that makes you hard to move but this guy has experience at being able to tough threw it so he can have the upperhand when the guys' arm chokes up on the blade.
MAYBE it's a sedative, and it makes them both fall asleep, and the guy knows he has a tendency to sleep less than others or maybe he just got over an 8 hour nap 5 minutes ago and has a higher probability of waking up.
I could give you a 100 other maybes, but the bald guy doesnt give any second thought to the given information and the fact that the givens might be biased. There is no way ANY man that I have ever met that has any sense of logic anywhere near a reasonably impressive level of logic or wit that would take that fully for face value and just fall into assuming that 100 possibly maybe's aren't maybes, it just completely idiotic to think that a smart logical witted man would just blindly assume away like that.
THIRD, he assumes the guy puts it in one glass, why does he assume that?? The guy hides what he's doing.
DUH ELEMENTARY LOGIC HERE!! DUHHHHH
You have 2 glasses, he only has 3 options here!!!!!
1) He put it in 1 glass
2) He put in 2 glasses
3) He put in neither glass
So the game begins, and it doesnt even occur to baldy to know how many glasses are part of the game and the givens?? That's ASININE. No logic man or highly witted man wouldnt think to wonder which combination of 1,2 or none are we playing with, WTF??
This is why it's insulting to my intelligence.
Forget the probing, the probing is 100% irrelevant, we don't even know what the game is or what the ground rules are. The very essence of logic is starting with some actual parameters, and there is no reason for him to think he has established any parameters of any kind with any credibility. It's completely preposterous.
The IDEA for the scene is funny. But, they could have just as easily made a battle of wits between the 2 men, and at least adhered to a few core things that didn't completely insult my intelligence into believing that this could actually happen if you ran into a forest and encountered an evil witted genius.
The problem here is the script writer was not a real logical genius. They should have had a logic expert review that scene content FIRST whether to proofread it or write up his own dialogue, then shot the scene, so that it could be executed to reasonable standards.
Last edited Jul 11, 2008 14:00:23
Mailstrom
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Solve the situation then. It sounds like from your banter you would not have accepted the challenge in the first place, therefore lossing before the game got started.
The Strategy Expert
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Hell no. But this guy did, because he saw no threat, because he created ASSUMPTIONS that made it safe. There's no reason to think a high-witted man would invent far fetched assumptions.
Here's me if I'm the bald guy...
Take it from the time the guy pulls out the vial on his person.
ME: "Whoa whoa whoa, I don't even know what you are about to propose, but don't move any further, i dont know what that stick is but don't even make a sudden movement, BACK THE FUCK UP AND FREEZE RIGHT NOW or I kill the girl!"
(Pause: Ok, for one, i dont know what the substance is he's pulling out. It may have an aroma to it that could knock me out from a distance. It might have a poison dart that can shoot out and hit me, it might.... a million things come to mind.)
(ALSO: When he announces it as a deadly poison...Ok wait a minute here. Why does a guy travel with a poisonous substance on his person?? Well, a logical man would first conclude that he carries it because he considers it to be an ASSET in some way for some situations. Well if it's an ASSET to him, why would I assume it could harm him, maybe it's a trick in some way? Maybe it's not a trick but a decoy, maybe it's water and he's putting nothing in the glasses and he's just trying to buy time for some other ploy that I haven't figured out yet)
Either way, as soon as he pulls out his own BIASED item, there is NOTHING I can possibly assume that I want to assume. He's taking control of making up the game, the rules, defining the products and materials in use, and using his own materials. WTF??!?!??! This isn't a logic game, it's a riddle. How is this traveler going to screw me over, he has an infinte number of ways to kill me and I don't even know where to start, I don't know if he's going to kill me with this potion or one of a million other things, because I haven't established anything or verified anything in the first place!
So Mr. Traveler, you want to offer me a game of wits? Ok, then let's play a FAIR game, not a game where you make up the rules, you hide stuff, you use your own BIASED materials, and I assume you speak the truth for my best interest. I mean after all you probably want to kill me so I don't kill you so we all know anything you say I can't expect to be true and fair can I?
So... either I MAKE UP ALL the rules so I can have control of the situation, or we find SOME OTHER WAY to compromise other than this mess of a tainted situation that doesn't give me any reason whatsoever to think it's a wit test. I have absolutely no clue or hint of information to think you are offering a wits test here. After all I'm a genius, and you are likely not, so why would I expect you to want to settle for a game of wits, your best card is probably of course a physical assualt of some way. The very concept that you are eager to play the wits game is suspicous in itself.
Etc. etc. etc.
Here's me if I'm the bald guy...
Take it from the time the guy pulls out the vial on his person.
ME: "Whoa whoa whoa, I don't even know what you are about to propose, but don't move any further, i dont know what that stick is but don't even make a sudden movement, BACK THE FUCK UP AND FREEZE RIGHT NOW or I kill the girl!"
(Pause: Ok, for one, i dont know what the substance is he's pulling out. It may have an aroma to it that could knock me out from a distance. It might have a poison dart that can shoot out and hit me, it might.... a million things come to mind.)
(ALSO: When he announces it as a deadly poison...Ok wait a minute here. Why does a guy travel with a poisonous substance on his person?? Well, a logical man would first conclude that he carries it because he considers it to be an ASSET in some way for some situations. Well if it's an ASSET to him, why would I assume it could harm him, maybe it's a trick in some way? Maybe it's not a trick but a decoy, maybe it's water and he's putting nothing in the glasses and he's just trying to buy time for some other ploy that I haven't figured out yet)
Either way, as soon as he pulls out his own BIASED item, there is NOTHING I can possibly assume that I want to assume. He's taking control of making up the game, the rules, defining the products and materials in use, and using his own materials. WTF??!?!??! This isn't a logic game, it's a riddle. How is this traveler going to screw me over, he has an infinte number of ways to kill me and I don't even know where to start, I don't know if he's going to kill me with this potion or one of a million other things, because I haven't established anything or verified anything in the first place!
So Mr. Traveler, you want to offer me a game of wits? Ok, then let's play a FAIR game, not a game where you make up the rules, you hide stuff, you use your own BIASED materials, and I assume you speak the truth for my best interest. I mean after all you probably want to kill me so I don't kill you so we all know anything you say I can't expect to be true and fair can I?
So... either I MAKE UP ALL the rules so I can have control of the situation, or we find SOME OTHER WAY to compromise other than this mess of a tainted situation that doesn't give me any reason whatsoever to think it's a wit test. I have absolutely no clue or hint of information to think you are offering a wits test here. After all I'm a genius, and you are likely not, so why would I expect you to want to settle for a game of wits, your best card is probably of course a physical assualt of some way. The very concept that you are eager to play the wits game is suspicous in itself.
Etc. etc. etc.
Last edited Jul 11, 2008 14:26:41
Raves
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TSE you just ruined a very funny part of a movie. The scene was created to instill humor not to make people scratch their head wondering if the logic is correct or not. If anything if they had actually made that part of the movie logical then everyone would've hated it as mathematical logic for instance is rather illogical as well.
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