Warrior General Games

Given its a flat bonus per level, and given that speed Wr's often 8-cap speed, the only way that 2 SP for 2 route run isn't worth it, is if those 2 route run together give less than 0.25 spd (especially since you get an equivalent agi bonus as well).

I'd actually estimate route run to be 0.5 spd and 0.5 agi per level based on the speed script test. That means 2 route run I estimate to be worth 1 spd and 1 agi. = 16 SP estimated value (assuming you're 8-capping both attributes) or 8 estimated value per point.

Keep in mind this would give an estimate 80 spd/agi SP value for using 30 pts to get 10 route run. Even if we assume an aggressive 30% penalty SA that is still 3.5 spd and 3.5 agility for 30 SP = better value than 5-capping (30/7=4.2).

Keep in mind SA's were designed for L1 dots originally,and there's no way bort made a point in route run (which is only when running a route) worth less than 1 sp for 1 speed (which you get all the time).

But regardless of whether you think I smoke crack, their is no logical math that works for 2 sp for 2 route run not to be worth it on every player with easy access to the SA. Easily. Again assuming 8-cap you'd need each point in route run to be less than 0.125 combined spd/agi or less than 0.0625 individual spd and agi. Assuming 10 route run is worth less than 0.625 spd and 0.625 agi would for 30 SP is literal insanity.

Same logic applies to things like run block and pass block and other beginning of tree linear SA's that get ignored.

Well, if it's a Speed Wr I generally don't get it because it's one (of 2) penalized SA's. Which means you get a lot less benefit by putting SP's into it. Since those SP's are better served in other SA's which help a lot more, can't think of why you'd want to spend those precious SP's on something you'll only get half value for, if even that. If I was going to spend SP's on a penalized SA it would be Sticky Hands instead. Much more useful, IMHO.

Again, from an SP argument it's SP in literal speed and agility vs SP in literally route run which helps speed and agility. Being unable to budget add'l sp's for other SA's properly is pretty irrelivent.

Also I thought it was pretty generally accepted penalty SA's are in the 20% to 40% range, and. I think 40% seems pretty unlikely since it's a crazy aggressive number that only came from catch22 which bort denied as being correct. But it could be for some SA's if we accept all bonus and penalty aren't equal.

But let's say it was 50% (which it's not) those first 2 points are literally 50% of the cost of points 3 and 4, and are only 20% of the cost of points 9 and 10. Flat bonus SA's are not 0 or 10 like chance to fire ones, you can literally justify only a few points in things.

As an aside, this game is absolutely littered with 155-160 spd 0 route run 5'8 spd wr's that get 20 catches a season in competitive games... So not a great justification Imho.

Mathematically there's no way 0 is optimal unless bort made the SA as a practical joke that gave 0.06.spd and 0.06 agi per point.

There's a lot to digest there.

#1 Wise smokes meth not crack. This isn't the 90s anymore.

#2 the bonus/penalty was leaked at 40% which was most likely true at the time, but also most likely has been changed since that leak.

#3 RR is an SA that has benefit more or less linear to the investment, due to the fact it's always on, not chance to fire

#4 I agree that if you get to the end of a build, and have an extra 2 SP sitting around collecting dust, it probably would be better to get a point in RR/SH than tacking on a random point in stamina or something.

#5 I'm not sure it's worth specifically trying to build into as a goal with a Speedster, but you're probably also smoking meth if you don't do it on any other archetype.

I happen to believe that if Bort actually changed the percentage, it was probably a minor change so that the intent of having the really substantial impact of choice between archetypes. He could have done something like 39% to pass a lie detector test, or could have gone up to 45% percent for all anyone knows. The intent was always that the archetype decision was very important.

#2 being leaked as a disgruntled employee that didn't code the game is dubious. Does it really make sense for every bonus and penalty SA in the game to have the same %?

Even if it was 20% it'd still be very important. But even if it was 50%, a couple pts is a no brainer.

Honestly I feel if you have a speed receiving weapon with less than 8 route run, you're not building optimally though.

Well, I'll just leave the rest of this to others but, before I go... some food for thought.

So many things in this game are built on curves and very interconnected. There is not one single aspect of a play where a single skill dictates the outcome. Same can be said for VA's and SA's... which are, at best, helper things... adding (or subtracting) from the entire outcome formula. And I suspect you can find the words 'diminishing returns' posted a few hundred times at the very least. I have good reason to believe you'll find Bort's love for these kinds of things permeating throughout every part of the game... which includes the SA's... especially on the Trees. I won't go into detail about all the posts about this stuff but know they're out there. It would not surprise me at all to find that everytime you raise an SA, it's effect diminishes slightly... which increases the more you raise the SA... which is why 10 is generally the standard stopping point (except for Kickers and Punters which really don't have much better things to pour extra SP's into).
Lastly, I'm not against dropping an extra point into a penalized SA if it fits the build... but to try and push a penalized SA up near 10 isn't likely something I'll be doing anytime soon. Mostly because the SP's used to do that always have a better use on some other SA. Except for Kickers and Punters, you can always find great SA's that are much better and aren't penalized. That's just me however and I could well be wrong... but until someone can show me something differently than all I've learned from long winded arguments with JD and other top dot builders, I'll likely stick to what has worked well so far... mostly. (I still try strange things now and then.... like going Strength 1st on my kicker. Jury is still out on that. )

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Honestly I feel if you have a speed receiving weapon with less than 8 route run, you're not building optimally though.

20 SPs, that's a spicy take.



Would you skip the 1-cap on jumping to get that? or just make everything else a tiny bit lower? Or would you trade 1st step or QC?

I can't imagine a scenario where 8 route run gets you less than 4 spd and 4 agi when running routes.

3 less speed at the 8 cap covers the 20 sp and basically gers you 4 extra agility, 1 extra speed for free...

Even if we assume 40% penalty that's 2.4 spd and 2.4 agi for 20 sp in route run. 8-capped speed *2.4 = 20 SP and you basically get 2.4 agility for free...


In the end, do what you want, but you can easily justify less speed or agility to instead put those points in route run...

I found this really interesting

12 SPs in it has always felt mandatory, a case could be made for more

Originally posted by Fred Ex
I found this really interesting

I see you are a man of genius and culture.

To answer thread title, yes. Anything else will be a waste in a penalised SA imo.

How do people not read? The Penalty and Bonus to the Penalized and Favored SAs are TWENTY PERCENT. One fifth. I need a fifth after reading some of your posts.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
the only way that 2 SP for 2 route run isn't worth it, is if those 2 route run together give less than 0.25 spd (especially since you get an equivalent agi bonus as well).

Same logic applies to things like run block and pass block and other beginning of tree linear SA's that get ignored.

Finally something I can whole-heartedly agree with you on. Well, I don't personally think its a given that the SA is a 'flat bonus' (I feel its more % based and recall reading that as well) but regardless your logic stands, in fact even more so if it is percentage based. The other thing I would add is that you are adding those 2 sp at the very very end of the build when they are worth far, far less than early on when you are buying your speed and agility. I mean, 2 SP at the very end? What else are you going to use it on, to get stamina from 49 to 50? I agree with the entire sentiment. It doesn't really make sense to ignore at least 2 SP in any SA in a skill you actually use... even if its penalized 20%. Thats still 79.99% more goodness than if you spent that to make your confidence 42 or some crap

Originally posted by psi
12 SPs in it has always felt mandatory, a case could be made for more
I personally feel this way also. I've seen WRs and TEs with quite average speed look fast with 8-10 Route Run SA. That makes me want it on my fast guys as well. I can't say exactly how it works, but if it works for those guys, it should work for my fast guys too.

Regardless of any of that, 2 SP is well wort it to spend for any SA which you will regularly use. That's logically sound.

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