Warrior General Games

Scat FB:

Spd: 110+58=168
Agi = 88
Vision = 70
Catch = 73
Stamina = 60
Carrying = 40
Jump = 23
Conf = 22
Str = 9
Sticky Hands 4+1=5
Quick Cut 8+6+1 = 15
Juke = 8+6 = 14
Route Run = 10
21% Fake Chance
15% Catch Ball


Under the assumption i'm not moving spd or agi down, what would you change (increase vs decrease) and why?

Also if anyone is curious how to build a 4-major dot like this, just let me know.

fwiw... I've always held the superstition that fake% doesn't fire for Jukes while running a route.

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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4829505&page=4#44683746

Originally posted by Bort
Every time a receiver reaches a cut point in his route, he will impart a reaction delay to any defender following him. How good of a cut the receiver makes makes depends on his agility and route running abilities. This effect can be mitigated some (delay time reduced) by passing vision checks at the cut point. However, it is not possible to ever have a delay of 0 without passing an exceedingly difficult roll. There will nearly always be at least 1 tick of delay. In addition, the vision checks are harder to pass and the delay effect is increased when the defender is following very closely and aggressively in man coverage. Head fakes and jukes (which can be mitigated by vision checks and superior vision skill) increase the delay time imparted.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5065409&page=1#47155260

3. There is a different kind of "fake" caused by a quick enough change in direction, that does not require an SA. The defender will tend to overrun his target from not reacting quickly enough, being carried on by momentum. "Avoid fake" does not help avoid this, but vision, agility, and superior vision skill do.


https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016

Originally posted by Bort
Man coverage delay is entirely based on vision and super vision. Successful super vision checks even let you have a delay of zero ticks.

====

It seems like it would screw up the math if coverage dots don't get the benefit of AF%, but the route runners do get to add F%

I believe that Fake % is specifically for running with the ball, and the "newer" Catch Fake, which isn't powered by attributes at all.

I'm with TJ here and a bit more from my own notes. Fake% helps fakes fire but many fakes aren't useful while running route. Catch Fake is almost a must to give you an extra bonus to getting open. However... I also like running Scats occasionally and then there's what you do AFTER the catch, so I don't have an issue with Fake% gear either way... just see where you might add in Catch Fake.

If you DO want to look at things you have and what you CAN change without major damage to your idea, I'd look at the extra you have in Quick Cut and Juke. There's a boatload of Bort quotes all about the forum on taking SA's over 10 giving you a greatly diminished rate of return on gains but, for some dots and for some ideas in building them, it's not a horrible thing to do. I mean, I take my kickers and punters to the wall and beyond... sometimes WAY beyond... because there's not really a much better thing for those to put your SP's into at the end. However... transferring those extra SP's spent to get to 14 and 15 respectively, could easily get you a higher Agility (absolutely a must for dots that run routes, IMHO) or a higher Catch (73 is a bit low if you plan on running those deeper routes. Perfectly fine for short and screens) skill.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I'm with TJ here and a bit more from my own notes. Fake% helps fakes fire but many fakes aren't useful while running route. Catch Fake is almost a must to give you an extra bonus to getting open. However... I also like running Scats occasionally and then there's what you do AFTER the catch, so I don't have an issue with Fake% gear either way... just see where you might add in Catch Fake.

If you DO want to look at things you have and what you CAN change without major damage to your idea, I'd look at the extra you have in Quick Cut and Juke. There's a boatload of Bort quotes all about the forum on taking SA's over 10 giving you a greatly diminished rate of return on gains but, for some dots and for some ideas in building them, it's not a horrible thing to do. I mean, I take my kickers and punters to the wall and beyond... sometimes WAY beyond... because there's not really a much better thing for those to put your SP's into at the end. However... transferring those extra SP's spent to get to 14 and 15 respectively, could easily get you a higher Agility (absolutely a must for dots that run routes, IMHO) or a higher Catch (73 is a bit low if you plan on running those deeper routes. Perfectly fine for short and screens) skill.

12 is typically the most I will go on a dot

Originally posted by reddogrw
12 is typically the most I will go on a dot

I believe that's what bort also recommended or said someto the nature that anything over 12 you really start getting deminished returns

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
fwiw... I've always held the superstition that fake% doesn't fire for Jukes while running a route.

===




You seem to be misunderstanding what fake % and avoid fake % does- those only affect these 4 SAs:
Head Fake, Juke, Catch Fake and Pump Fake. It doesn't do anything for the normal ways a player can be 'faked out' such as a change of direction, a break on a route, the QB switching his read, or anything based on the players movement on the field. As you said, that is all based on agility, vision, super vision and what not. The fake % only affect the specific fake SAs which allow the player an extra ability to fake.

So fake % and avoid fake % definitely affects those four SAs when running a route. It does not affect the normal amount of 'faked out' the guy covering will get by the route being run. It only affects those SAs.


Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Scat FB:

Spd: 110+58=168
Agi = 88
Vision = 70
Catch = 73
Stamina = 60
Carrying = 40
Jump = 23
Conf = 22
Str = 9
Sticky Hands 4+1=5
Quick Cut 8+6+1 = 15
Juke = 8+6 = 14
Route Run = 10
21% Fake Chance
15% Catch Ball


Under the assumption i'm not moving spd or agi down, what would you change (increase vs decrease) and why?

Also if anyone is curious how to build a 4-major dot like this, just let me know.

Is this a scat back? Jumping should really be 50... its not that difficult to cap jumping. He's a scat back right? Also, you don't want to hear this, but a scatback needs more than 88 agility. Is this a scatback build or a go-route running WR build? 163 speed and 93 agility would be better. Scatbacks need like 93 agility, and they need to be able to catch. Why only 73 catching? That is a scat back right? Mine has nearly 90... I am thinking you unbalanced your build trying to get 168 speed. That makes sense for a WR maybe but a scatback needs to do different things IMO.

I'll give my example:

Smash E. Bull -TURBO EDITION (RETIRED)

Str: 50
Spd: 102+58=160
Agi: 93.77
Catch: 88.1
Vision: 79.43
Carrying: 55.26
Jump: 52.59
Blocking: 31.26
Stamina: 42.67
Conf: 31.26

Cover Up: 4+1= 5
Sticky Hands: 8+1= 9
Power Thru: 5+1= 6
Quick Cut: 10+1= 11
Dive 4 Yrd: 0+1= 1
Juke = 9+2= 11
Spin = 8+2= 10

Speed +3.98
Catching +5.11
Spin chance +30%
Head Fake chance +30%
Hurdle chance +30%
Juke chance +30%
Break tackle chance +15%
Fake chance +15%
Catch ball chance +22.5%

I think this current build I should use the CEQ to get +21% Fake Chance, and confidence up to 40 as well. I think I can scratch out a few more points to do so... if I do have to use the CEQ on SAs again, some of it should be in Quick Cut instead so I don't have to waste points on so much Power Thru, which he rarely used. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with it.

Originally posted by Bash E. Bull
You seem to be misunderstanding what fake % and avoid fake % does- those only affect these 4 SAs:


You seem to be misunderstanding my statement.

There's a ton of quotes that say avoid fake % doesn't help DBs against all the cuts.

So I was saying that fake % might not help receivers while running routes.

It's probably good for Catch Fake. And every other Juke and Head fake after the ball is caught.

It's also possible that Bort just rigged the math, so that anti fake % doesn't work and fake % does. But that doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
You seem to be misunderstanding my statement.

There's a ton of quotes that say avoid fake % doesn't help DBs against all the cuts.

So I was saying that fake % might not help receivers while running routes.

It's probably good for Catch Fake. And every other Juke and Head fake after the ball is caught.

It's also possible that Bort just rigged the math, so that anti fake % doesn't work and fake % does. But that doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort



Juke happens while running routes as well

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
fwiw... I've always held the superstition that fake% doesn't fire for Jukes while running a route.


So TJ, first I want to say I truly appreciate the in-depth response to go with Bort quotes. Your effort to help others is fully appreciated by me and I'm sure MANY other lurkers.

With that said, you are conflating a few game mechanics, which admittedly get pretty confusing in isolated bort quotes.

At the end of the day there are a few things...

1. Reaction time when running a route (ie being able to follow a receivers cuts). This is Bort's quote about not being effected by avoid fake, which makes sense since the WR isn't doing a fake, he's just running the route. No Fake vs Avoid Fake roll here, so no +% effects it. Fair and makes sense.

2. SA Fakes with the ball (Juke & Head Fake). This is of course the mainstream fake vs anti fake roll, and only shows up in the pbp when the fake roll (juke roll) wins. The amount of time the defender is stunned in a direction is effected by how much the fake roll wins by. Note, the Juke SA (just like the break tackle SA's) fire all the time but only show up on the pbp when successful in faking a defender.

3. Non-SA fake with the ball. So much like you can break a tackle without a SA firing in the pbp, you can fake a defender without an SA firing in the pbp. The tricky thing about this is since no SA fires, the defender doesn't get a fake "alert" over his head. Generally for high level dots this is actually pretty rare with the exception being on dots with open field fake. Only way to tell is you have a defender that straight up misses the ball carrier, continuing to run in a direction oddly. Things like agility/vision/carrying create your "fake score" which is then boosting by flat bonuses (SA's if they fire) as well as fake% AE. The defender then has his avoid fake roll (including avoid fake% of course) and they battle to see who wins. Again, without an SA firing, this is a rare thing for plateau dots, but I can source some replays if needed.

4. SA Fakes while running a route (Juke and Headfake). When direction changes you can attempt a fake vs anti-fake roll with juke or headfake. The battle roll, as always, is your fake score + flat bonus SA's * +fake% AE, battling against your anti-fake score + flat bonus SA's * +avoid fake% AE. There is zero doubt in my mind that +fake% AE and +avoid fake% AE helps route run jukes. However, if you Juke successfully (win the roll and defender gets a pbp notification), it is interpreted by the sim as a bonus to #1 above (IE the defender gets a delay penalty in reaction time to the direction change.


Also just anecdotally, double fake% WR's fire WAY WAY more Jukes in the pbp than a WR without fake% AE while running routes.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago

If you DO want to look at things you have and what you CAN change without major damage to your idea, I'd look at the extra you have in Quick Cut and Juke. There's a boatload of Bort quotes all about the forum on taking SA's over 10 giving you a greatly diminished rate of return on gains but, for some dots and for some ideas in building them, it's not a horrible thing to do. I mean, I take my kickers and punters to the wall and beyond... sometimes WAY beyond... because there's not really a much better thing for those to put your SP's into at the end. However... transferring those extra SP's spent to get to 14 and 15 respectively, could easily get you a higher Agility (absolutely a must for dots that run routes, IMHO) or a higher Catch (73 is a bit low if you plan on running those deeper routes. Perfectly fine for short and screens) skill.

Appreciated on the thoughts and I think I'm much more open to dropping quick cut from 15 to 13 (save 8 SP's rather than taking juke down from 14 to 12 (save 8 SP's), given juke is an exponential SA (each level increases both jukes strength, and it's chance to fire).

I just want to generally note that the bort quote basically says +SA's after 11 have diminishing returns, and past 12 probably isn't worth it. However, we know from initial rollouts of +% AE that bort kinda sucks at math (was like +20% per piece without diminishing returns originally, which basic math should tell you is completely lolcats).

So... we have no idea how fast it diminishes. We have no idea if the 13th point is 60% of the 10th point, or whatever. But it's unlikely it diminishes off a cliff as significantly as many in here assume, imho.

It's hard for me to come up with a better use of 8 SP's than taking juke from 12 to 14, honestly. Since it gives you more chances to win more battle rolls by more resulting in longer fakes which could be the difference between catches/pds or catches/tds. But perhaps I'm on crack island.

15 QC is probably overkill though. Only nice thing is quick cut is always there on every single play.

Originally posted by Bash E. Bull
Is this a scat back? Jumping should really be 50... its not that difficult to cap jumping. He's a scat back right? Also, you don't want to hear this, but a scatback needs more than 88 agility. Is this a scatback build or a go-route running WR build? 163 speed and 93 agility would be better. Scatbacks need like 93 agility, and they need to be able to catch. Why only 73 catching? That is a scat back right? Mine has nearly 90... I am thinking you unbalanced your build trying to get 168 speed. That makes sense for a WR maybe but a scatback needs to do different things IMO.

Imho it's insanity to tell me that 88 agi is way too low and 93 is perfect.

Fwiw I'm confident 10 in the route run SA gives at least 5 agility.

I'm pretty confident 10+ quick cut, and 10 route run and 88 agility will be able to separate on cuts, plus the speed to pull away from them.

Appreciated on all the advice and the example though Bash!

For the record, this is my point of superstition

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
4. SA Fakes while running a route (Juke and Headfake). When direction changes you can attempt a fake vs anti-fake roll with juke or headfake. The battle roll, as always, is your fake score + flat bonus SA's * +fake% AE, battling against your anti-fake score + flat bonus SA's * +avoid fake% AE. There is zero doubt in my mind that +fake% AE and +avoid fake% AE helps route run jukes. However, if you Juke successfully (win the roll and defender gets a pbp notification), it is interpreted by the sim as a bonus to #1 above (IE the defender gets a delay penalty in reaction time to the direction change.


I do not believe this exists.

I believe that while running routes, there's always a "cut vs vision roll" as stated above

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
1. Reaction time when running a route (ie being able to follow a receivers cuts). This is Bort's quote about not being effected by avoid fake, which makes sense since the WR isn't doing a fake, he's just running the route. No Fake vs Avoid Fake roll here, so no +% effects it. Fair and makes sense.

I believe that DBs get access to Super Vision, and that is balanced against HF/Juke. I do not believe that AF% or F% applies, or for that matter QF VA, or O.F.F SA.

I believe Avoid Fake % is important for DBs to avoid Pump Fakes and Catch Fakes, and to avoid being faked by all ball carriers, whether that's eHBs or every receiver after making a catch...

Fake % is important to receivers who invest in Catch Fake, and also for making a Jukes/HFs after the ball has been caught.

This is my superstition.

I don't believe Bort would code a whole entire second separate formula for running routes. Not only is that twice the effort, but it'd also be rocket science to know when to switch between the two.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
I believe that DBs get access to Super Vision, and that is balanced against HF/Juke. I do not believe that AF% or F% applies, or for that matter QF VA, or O.F.F SA.

I believe Avoid Fake % is important for DBs to avoid Pump Fakes and Catch Fakes, and to avoid being faked by all ball carriers, whether that's eHBs or every receiver after making a catch...

Fake % is important to receivers who invest in Catch Fake, and also for making a Jukes/HFs after the ball has been caught.

This is my superstition.

I don't believe Bort would code a whole entire second separate formula for running routes. Not only is that twice the effort, but it'd also be rocket science to know when to switch between the two.



on replays you can see Juke fire for a receiver while running a route

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3099664&pbp_id=632201

Originally posted by reddogrw
on replays you can see Juke fire for a receiver while running a route

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3099664&pbp_id=632201

I agree. No one is debating that AFAIK.

The point of contention is the Fake% gear boosting it, while moving without the ball.

Bort went out of his way, multiple times, to spell out that Avoid Fake% doesn't help the defense. It seems odd that Fake% would help the offense.

Why would the defense only get Vision + Super Vision SA, ... but the offense gets Agility + Juke SA + Fake% ?
Originally posted by
Originally posted by Bort
Man coverage delay is entirely based on vision and super vision. Successful super vision checks even let you have a delay of zero ticks.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016

There could be some random math fuckery involved, that wouldn't be a new thing. It's possible that Bort decided to fudge things so that Fake% works 100% of the time, and just nerfed the crap out of the baseline fake chance so that Vision + SV is balanced.

That's why I'm saying this is a superstition. I don't believe Bort would do something much more complex on purpose. I'd rather believe it's a simple as attribute + SA VS attribute + SA

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
You seem to be misunderstanding my statement.

There's a ton of quotes that say avoid fake % doesn't help DBs against all the cuts.

So I was saying that fake % might not help receivers while running routes.

It's probably good for Catch Fake. And every other Juke and Head fake after the ball is caught.

It's also possible that Bort just rigged the math, so that anti fake % doesn't work and fake % does. But that doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort



I understand exactly what you are saying. It is not correct.

You believe that Fake % and Avoid Fake % helps with cuts while carrying the ball and breaks while running a route. It does not do this, at all

Fake % and Avoid Fake % only affects these four SAs:
Head Fake, Juke, Pump Fake, Catch Fake
it affects them anytime they can be used which is when a player is carrying the ball or running a route.
That is what it does- no more, no less.

I hope you understand this; I've literally seen you make this mistake for 30 seasons now and I assume you were doing it before I came back to GLB. I'm sorry to break it to, but this is it.