Warrior General Games

Hey guys, just planning out my future dot for 400 days from now. Any thoughts/discussion is appreciated. Of course, zero interest in considering less speed

This dot is meant to be the natural progression of lessons learned from my previous super-speed HB Retro: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2565319. Basically with Retro I used too many resources trying to break tackles, which never worked too well against top competition. Dot would have been much better with those resources elsewhere. My thought...In a receiving back that can be used on more than just running sweeps!

LVL79 SCAT HB

Physical Attributes
Strength 15(+0)
Speed 116.10(+0) (+58 EQ) = 174.1 SPD
Agility 80.10(+0)
Jumping 24.26(+0)

Mental Attributes
Stamina 49.26(+0)
Vision 51.26(+0)
Confidence 22.26(+0)

Football Skills
Blocking 6(+0)
Tackling 8(+0)
Throwing 8(+0)
Catching 70.10(+0)
Carrying 52.10(+0)
Kicking 8(+0)

80 SP remaining, so 80 SP, 4AE, and 1CE.


Idea 1: Standard fake HB.

AE/CE: +22.5% Fake%, +21% catch%, +6 Juke

SP's:
22 SP to get stamina to 60.
45 SP to get 10-1-2-6 base across receiving tree.
12 SP for 6 route run
1 SP for 1 jumping

Would give 60stam, 11 qc, 13 juke.


Idea 2: Zero fake, all cuts/spd

AE/CE: +25.5% catch%, +6 Quick Cut, +6 First Step

SP's:
22 SP to get stamina to 60.
46 SP to get 10-3-6 base across receiving tree.
12 SP for 6 route run

Would give 60 stam, 17 Quick Cut (favored), 13 First Step (favored)

====

1. Other idea's are welcome.
2. Why am I crazy?
3. Is consensus that route run gives better spd/agi than the scat HB SA?
4. Either of these backs have any utility for occasional outside runs?
5. Why won't this work well?

Thanks strangers/enemies/friends.

Offer sent...

I think there is a speed to agility ratio.

80 Agility to 174 speed is kinda like running E87 in a 440 with a six pack.

90 Agility to 164 speed would be faster, unless you have a great offensive line and you are running straight routes. Just my opinion.

But don't listen to me build that sh!t, because it would be awesome to see,,,,, and lets be honest you're a legend and don't need advise !!!

Kinda along the lines of what Myth said, it comes down to what kind of routes your dot will be using mostly. With only 70 in catching, he's not going to be a quality deep threat. Oh... he'll catch one (deep pass) now and then but he'll drop several others. The farther the pass flies, the more skill both the QB and the receives needs to give you the best shot at success. Also, the QB will need plenty of time to throw those bombs and most defenses don't tend to give QB's that much time.
Medium and short routes he'll be fine. If there's plans on him catching screen passes and turning them into huge gains, then Myth's take on agility/speed combinations is spot on. Gotta break those ankles before you can fire up that breakaway speed.

FWIW, I would have concerns with no strength and low carrying. If someone does catch him, that ball might become greasy.

Originally posted by Mythology
Offer sent...

I think there is a speed to agility ratio.

80 Agility to 174 speed is kinda like running E87 in a 440 with a six pack.

90 Agility to 164 speed would be faster, unless you have a great offensive line and you are running straight routes. Just my opinion.


I think the "you need x agility for y spd to count" thing has basically been debunked at some point. Spd is definitely top spd. Spd/agi both effect acceleration, but generally all glb dots accelerate unrealistically fast. Agi helps not lose speed when turning or cutting. I do agree routes should generally be straight, but 1-cut routes with high quick cut should hopefully be ok. My past 174/75 spd/agi dot blazed plenty of 160 spd dbs on outside runs which have a curve to um.


Any further thoughts on idea 1 vs idea 2?

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Kinda along the lines of what Myth said, it comes down to what kind of routes your dot will be using mostly. With only 70 in catching, he's not going to be a quality deep threat. Oh... he'll catch one (deep pass) now and then but he'll drop several others. The farther the pass flies, the more skill both the QB and the receives needs to give you the best shot at success. Also, the QB will need plenty of time to throw those bombs and most defenses don't tend to give QB's that much time.
Medium and short routes he'll be fine. If there's plans on him catching screen passes and turning them into huge gains, then Myth's take on agility/speed combinations is spot on. Gotta break those ankles before you can fire up that breakaway speed.

70 catching should be plenty to catch when open (especially with +21% catch%). Main value of higher catching is for the anti-pd battle roll when you are uncovered. Hope here would be the spd is enough to create separation on intermediate routes, that you can avoid the battle role.


Any thought vs SP idea 1 vs 2 vs others?

Originally posted by utvols
FWIW, I would have concerns with no strength and low carrying. If someone does catch him, that ball might become greasy.


How much str/car do WL wr's need to avoid fumbles? What would you recommend as a workable minimum?

It's likely the HB gets matched up with a cover LB or CB on routes, are these guys likely to ffum?

Generally I'm a bit more scared of knocked loose balls than fumbles, since receivers rarely seem to be tackled at the proper angles to force them. The hope is enough separation to avoid KL from any player who's focused on that? Should be significant separation on a 150 spd hard-hit CB for instance?

Thanks!

I did a Speed TE a few seasons ago (170+ with VA and 4EQ) and was always harassed about KLs. The stigma around it is much larger than the reality. A couple points in Cover Up, and some VA support, and KLs were eliminated completely.

Another thing to consider with this entire concept, QB still have to throw on Bullet. A lot of interceptions are made by dots who aren't covering the intended target
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3008492&pbp_id=66369

On the type of routes this dot would run, would you be inviting more interceptions? Are you willing to live with a boom/bust type of player? Would you be happy with building a decoy that defenses would need to account for, which could open up other areas of the field for other dots? How much value do you place on a dot that makes easy games much easier?

This conundrum has lead to the rise of shorter routes with sharp cuts. Which in turn, has lead to some underneath zones by LBs.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
70 catching should be plenty to catch when open (especially with +21% catch%). Main value of higher catching is for the anti-pd battle roll when you are uncovered. Hope here would be the spd is enough to create separation on intermediate routes, that you can avoid the battle role.


Any thought vs SP idea 1 vs 2 vs others?



Therein lies the rub. BTW, I based my (first post) statement on what I found when I tried to build an uber speed WR. He also had 170 speed and and 71 catch as well as 3 pieces of Make Catch (because I knew his catching would be low when finished... everything else was Catch In Stride). What I didn't foresee was the total picture. At top levels, Qb's get 2 to 3 second tops to make a passing decision before they're in trouble (sack, hurry, desperate throw into coverage). Most defenses don't empty their safeties out to give you the free and clear space you'll need to run past your defender. Most defenders are at least 160+ speed... that's only 10 less and it takes a bit of running to get that gap opened up because of that. Gap disappears if the Safeties are playing a Zone. Now you not only have to outrun your defender but also the deeper zone coverage.

My Wr had a tendency to drop passes... most of which were throws beyond 15 yards deep. It wasn't horrible... I don't want you to think he dropped everything thrown his way. I suspect he caught about 75% of passes thrown inside of 15 (passes not deflected away, intercepted, or bad throws... I did not count those... just the ones he had an actual chance to catch)... but only about 55% of 15+ yards. The deeper the pass, the more likely he was to drop it. And, mostly, because as fast as he was he was never as open as I thought he would be with all that speed. Defenses just held safeties in zone so he was seldom truly "open" as per GLB standards. I had a lot of fun building him... and he had some nice highlight reel plays now and then... but I prefer consistency anymore and I never felt he was a consistent threat/contributor.

With your HB, some juke and agility and spin and use him on screens/short throws? He'd be one heck of a weapon. Scary good. (IMO)

Amen TJ.

TBPH, I am NOT saying don't build the dot. Just saying it will take a very creative OC to get the most out of a dot with limitations. When doing 'extreme builds' it tends to create a dot that must be used in a highly specific way. Trying to fit a round peg into a square hole generally doesn't work well. But... if you find such an OC... your dot will be very effective.

Build him for TSW please! More agility...could sacrifice Juke & QC not going past 10. This dot would be a nightmare pick-you-poison on how to cover him. Too much speed to cover across the middle, too much speed to chase to the flats.

Whatever route you take, without the stamina his speed potential will fade as he runs routes allowing much slower defenders to catch up. Couple va that can be used to account for low agility. Route running a better option than quick cut and I hate first step. Tends to change where the receiver is in a route on any given play making check downs less knowable.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
I did a Speed TE a few seasons ago (170+ with VA and 4EQ) and was always harassed about KLs. The stigma around it is much larger than the reality. A couple points in Cover Up, and some VA support, and KLs were eliminated completely.

Another thing to consider with this entire concept, QB still have to throw on Bullet. A lot of interceptions are made by dots who aren't covering the intended target
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3008492&pbp_id=66369

On the type of routes this dot would run, would you be inviting more interceptions? Are you willing to live with a boom/bust type of player? Would you be happy with building a decoy that defenses would need to account for, which could open up other areas of the field for other dots? How much value do you place on a dot that makes easy games much easier?

This conundrum has lead to the rise of shorter routes with sharp cuts. Which in turn, has lead to some underneath zones by LBs.




Appreciated on the well thought out reply TJ.

In my mind, this dot. Isn't for running go routes. Simply put, I'm aware bort didn't leave the Sim in a great spot for downfield passing, to the point where very few oc's can do it successfully. Especially with a HB coming out of the backfield, it'd take forever to get deeper than a safety... Just not realistic.

Rather the hope is to cut well enough to let the speed separate on 1-cut horizontal routes, then use the gap created to get some yac. If a DC needs to throw an extra dot into a zone in the flat to stop him, that's mission accomplished. If he's viable in the screen game and the occasional pitch, should be solid? Idk.

Originally posted by Dr. E
Whatever route you take, without the stamina his speed potential will fade as he runs routes allowing much slower defenders to catch up. Couple va that can be used to account for low agility. Route running a better option than quick cut and I hate first step. Tends to change where the receiver is in a route on any given play making check downs less knowable.

Do you put less stamina on your 140 spd powerbacks than your 160 spd wr's?

Good thought on first step. I think I was usually against it on receivers, especially hbs who have scripted handoffs or have a big gap to get close to a defender.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Do you put less stamina on your 140 spd powerbacks than your 160 spd wr's?

Good thought on first step. I think I was usually against it on receivers, especially hbs who have scripted handoffs or have a big gap to get close to a defender.

I’ve never had a wr. Never push any of my teams agents to go that high either. I only wanted enough speed to get them to way points before the pass rush started lowering the pass quality score. Goal I asked for was 152 with va that helped run routes faster, ball hawk for example.