Warrior General Games

I will answer any non-stupid question in this thread about dotballing. Ask me anything.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I will answer any non-stupid question in this thread about dotballing. Ask me anything.

Good man I'm sure it'll be appreciated

OK...I'm interested...

What is more important for a QB, Strength or Vision?

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
OK...I'm interested...

What is more important for a QB, Strength or Vision?

I am going to say vision, because he can be the hulk but what good is it if he's blind?

If you could snap your fingers have have 2 "A-" Guards and 2 "A-" Tackles to build a World League team around, what combination of strength, blocking, agility, and speed would we see from them? I chose "A-" as the level here--it would be mighty rare to assemble an entire line of "A+" dots. "A-" is achievable for many of us.

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
OK...I'm interested...

What is more important for a QB, Strength or Vision?

Vision for sure, and it's not close. Vision effects pass quality more than strength. Strength effects your pass distance more (the degrading of pass quality for longer passes). The thing is though, whether it be strength or pd%, your pass quality degrades so quickly by distance that you aren't making a huge difference, and I'd argue that difference between 80 and 100 strength is nothing.

Lets say pass quality starts degrading by distance at 10 yards (which is close to right). +25.5% pass distance (3AE) is making it start to degrade at 12.5 yards instead. It's inherently shitty. Even for longer distances where +25.5% would make your QB's 25 yard pass have the negative pass quality from distance of a 20 yard pass, who gives a shit about 5 yards more of pass degrading.

The moral of the story is pass quality is much more important than pass distance, because all pass distance is, is a negative modifier to pass quality. Actual changes to pass quality are much more important when effecting your pass quality, since pass quality is pass quality.

It is very likely true since strength also modifies pass distance, vision is a higher modifier of pass quality itself. I think it's been confirmed by Bort that vision is the #2 attribute for pass quality after throwing. Vision also has secondary benefits such as helping your QB perform quick reads, helping your QB look off to different targets, and helping your quarterback find a target quickly when under pressure (identifying blitzes. Along with making your QB better at audibles if you have that allowed.

Imho Vision>Strength and it's not close at all. I've OC'd WL MVP QB's with 80 strength, but any time I touch a QB where strength>vision, he is fucking worse in my experience.

Take that fwiw. I'd be willing to bet you can have a beast WL passer with 70 strength and zero pd%, but I would definitely recommend triple stacking pass quality AE. 80+ strength and 1 pass distance % is a safer route of course and fine to take, but just trying to make my point that this isn't even close. Also generally (and against the popular beleif) I really wouldn't recommend double stacking +pd% and triple stacking pq% is better. There is no reasonable mathematical way that +6% pd% (2nd stack) is better for pass quality than +3% pass quality (3rd stack).

Gonna back wise here. I'm a minority QB builder... I believe the Pocket Passer is the better arch than the Deep Passer but I admit being in the minority in that approach. My reasons (and, coincidentally, my QB builds follow this logic as well) are that the Pocket Passer arch stresses Accuracy over Distance and I've always liked accuracy over distance (which makes me probably the ONLY Raider fan to think that ). Also I prefer the short passing game over bombs all day (another dagger in my Raider heart ). So when I build them, I prefer my Vision to be higher than my Strength. Generally, I get pretty good completion %'s but this game is severely tilted to the running game so to expect completions %'s in the 70's or better is kinda psychotic thinking. If you can get close to 60 (for a career)... or even INTO the 60's... then you've not only built a damn good QB but you've also had good receivers and a very good OC. Olines vs Dlines pretty much have been stagnant for many seasons now so you can count on your time to get the throw off to be fairly short usually. Your Qb had better be quick (release), smart (confidence), and accurate unless you want a lot of bad passes and failed throws.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
If you could snap your fingers have have 2 "A-" Guards and 2 "A-" Tackles to build a World League team around, what combination of strength, blocking, agility, and speed would we see from them? I chose "A-" as the level here--it would be mighty rare to assemble an entire line of "A+" dots. "A-" is achievable for many of us.

GENERAL

I would like all o-linemen to have 15% AE + 15%AE + 12% CE (25.5% total) in hold block%. All you do is block, stop being cheap and triple stack it ffs. The 3rd peice (effectively 3% hb%) in reality cuz of the transitive property of multiplication we learned in 2nd grade, gives you +3% to all your attributes including equipment for the purposes of your hold block roll. Sound OP? that's because it is.... Yes things like positioning (spd/agi) as well as vision will matter outside of your hold block roll, but it doesn't change the fact that blocking is something your player is going to do EXACTLY ALL THE TIME, and it's something we very completely care about.

As far as SA's, 10 Aura of INT and 10 Pummel. Every network in GLB from DS to gurupies to Agency, their greatest advantage if amazing olines, which are driven not just by build efficiency, but by the ability to have 9-10 dots on the oline with moral killing shit. If you are making.

Regardless of how good of a dotbuilder you are, if you are making olinemen without the two things above, you are doing it incorrectly.

Two A- Guards

I would say this is flavored to taste, but it actually is NOT. To put it simply, pass rushing arche guards suck. They are worse at pass blocking because strong DT's woop their ass and fast DTs push them back and jump past them. They are worse at run blocking because strong DT's woop their ass and don't get blocked hard so they make arm tackles up the middle all day. It sucks, but it is what it is, do NOT make pass arche guards....

Something like 160spd-94blk-89agi-80spd is ideal imo. You can swap blk and agi if you really want, but everyone builds guards with blocking 2nd, so you can't find the AGI guys even if you want to. I would say 93agi 88 blk would be better at pass blocking, and the above would be better at run blocking, but both should be effective and efficient at both.

General note, stop putting pulling linemen VA on your guards, it's an awful VA that only works for a few seconds.


Two A- Tackles

This is a much harder question and much more seasoned to taste. There is stuff you can get away with on a HEAVY run team, that you simply cannot on a balanced or passing team. If you are like 90%+ rushing, you can basically build them like the guards above and you are ready to rock.

---ideal pass blocking OTs---

You will need to split equipment to counter tech-man pass rushers, which means you want to be around 110 agi (which will stop tech man up to 122 agi on DE's, and spd-heavy with 115-120 agi is most popular pass rush DE build currently). If ur an LT, going pass arche is important so you can have protect pumped up to 10. Something like 140 str-80 spd-110agi-93 blocking is about right and achievable. I'm actually a fan of str/agi as first two attributes with blocking lagging down to like 88-89 and maybe a few more points in speed (closer to 83-84ish) if you can, but no one builds like that for the most part.

To put it simply, movement is so important on OT's because positioning is HUGE for your hold block roll (harder to block people on the side of you than in front of you), so the quicker you can get in front of people, the better. Trimming some attys to get to 85+ speed would likely serve you well in pass blocking, as I once had a beast 87 spd OT on my team, who otherwise sucked, but was able to always stay in front of his man due to the speed, and positioning/balance is a big part of avoiding revcakes as well.

OC's choice. When I was very pass heavy I'd want pass blockers at all 4 spots. as a more modern OC I want pass blockers at starting LT and RT (because it SUCKS to not be able to block DE's or blitzes on 3rd-and-long, and since you can force starters on 3rd down, that's really when you need the pass blocker), then your back-up LT and RT can be more of the pure run maulers, without you getting into too much trouble.

Pass rushers still hold up well in the run game and move outside to blocks better, but obviously won't get pancakes or the same push on off tackle plays, but HB's tend to have some wiggle on off tackle plays so that isn't a big deal imho. As an OC I'd either want 3 pass blockers (2 LT and 1 RT) or 2 pass blockers (starting LT and RT only).

===========================

tl;dr

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Gonna back wise here. I'm a minority QB builder... I believe the Pocket Passer is the better arch than the Deep Passer but I admit being in the minority in that approach.

Just noting that both pocket passer and deep passer have vision as a major, so the argument is strength vs confidence. Honestly, despite jdbolick's retarded crusade that confidence does nothing for a QB, in my experience that absolutely is not true, and again every WL MVP and WL passing leader i've coordinated has had much higher confidence than most, and confidence as the 3rd highest atty after throw+vision (and yes I have tried quite a few sexy high strength guys, but they end up INT spiraling like everyone else in GLB). Anecdotal as fuck, but confidence matters on your QB. Add in that pocket passer has better favored SA's (underrated) and I think it's a slam dunk. So I agree with your unpopular opinion Theo.

Modern GLB really is all about crossing routes and timing off of cuts tbh. Ya you can sling it somewhat, and INT's aren't as bad since the super-run meta caused everyone to be a hh-CB, but you can still get in a lot of trouble throwing deep if you don't know exactly what you're doing and forcing single coverage situations.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Vision for sure, and it's not close. Vision effects pass quality more than strength. Strength effects your pass distance more (the degrading of pass quality for longer passes). The thing is though, whether it be strength or pd%, your pass quality degrades so quickly by distance that you aren't making a huge difference, and I'd argue that difference between 80 and 100 strength is nothing.

Lets say pass quality starts degrading by distance at 10 yards (which is close to right). +25.5% pass distance (3AE) is making it start to degrade at 12.5 yards instead. It's inherently shitty. Even for longer distances where +25.5% would make your QB's 25 yard pass have the negative pass quality from distance of a 20 yard pass, who gives a shit about 5 yards more of pass degrading.

The moral of the story is pass quality is much more important than pass distance, because all pass distance is, is a negative modifier to pass quality. Actual changes to pass quality are much more important when effecting your pass quality, since pass quality is pass quality.

It is very likely true since strength also modifies pass distance, vision is a higher modifier of pass quality itself. I think it's been confirmed by Bort that vision is the #2 attribute for pass quality after throwing. Vision also has secondary benefits such as helping your QB perform quick reads, helping your QB look off to different targets, and helping your quarterback find a target quickly when under pressure (identifying blitzes. Along with making your QB better at audibles if you have that allowed.

Imho Vision>Strength and it's not close at all. I've OC'd WL MVP QB's with 80 strength, but any time I touch a QB where strength>vision, he is fucking worse in my experience.

Take that fwiw. I'd be willing to bet you can have a beast WL passer with 70 strength and zero pd%, but I would definitely recommend triple stacking pass quality AE. 80+ strength and 1 pass distance % is a safer route of course and fine to take, but just trying to make my point that this isn't even close. Also generally (and against the popular beleif) I really wouldn't recommend double stacking +pd% and triple stacking pq% is better. There is no reasonable mathematical way that +6% pd% (2nd stack) is better for pass quality than +3% pass quality (3rd stack).

So pretty much avoid pass distance % on EQ and go with pass quality instead? And an 80+ strength is sufficient enough to compete in the WL?

Great column--will subscribe.

Originally posted by Montoya829
I am going to say vision, because he can be the hulk but what good is it if he's blind?

Are you wises multi? Because in the OP wise said he would answer questions. But then you answered a question..

Originally posted by fuzzypoopy
Are you wises multi? Because in the OP wise said he would answer questions. But then you answered a question..

He can't be Wiseman's multi because I'm his multi and yours as well

Share with us your general thoughts on the "Route Run" SA. I've heard some denigrate its "addition" to be negligible in a true speed receiver build, but have also heard others chime in that no speed build should ignore an SA that adds to a dot's speed.