Warrior General Games

how important do y'all think vision is for various slots on ST (non K/P)? I mean, its not like there's a lot of mystery about how the plays are going to develop or who is going to end up with the ball. let's assume these are STOP guys and don't need to worry about playing on offense or defense (or at least not much)

i'd appreciate if others would weigh-in on these assumptions (really, just guesses on my part):

1) ST blockers need less vision than OLs since they don't have to pick up blitzes. the do need some vision to see guys coming and select the right guy to block, but not nearly as much as you would put on an OL?

2) ST tacklers/gunners don't need much vision at all except to avoid fakes? less than you would on a defensive dot, maybe a lot less?

3) returners need decent vision to see would-be tacklers, particularly if they rely on fakes to avoid them. so roughly the same as you would put on an offensive like a WR or TE?

I list, in order of importance, skills for ST's as follows; Speed, Agility, Strength, Vision, Blocking/Tackling.
I believe Vision is important for seeing WHERE the returner is going and the blockers are at so you can avoid them and hit the target. I also believe vision helps in avoiding fakes, jukes, and other returner stunts. I also believe it's important for the blockers to pick up incoming targets and successfully engage them in a block.
I believe it is even more important for returners than for ST players. They need it to "see" blocks set up for them, lanes to go through, or cut-back choices to clean space.

For blockers, think of vision like this; How much "vision" do you want your FB's to have when blocking for the HB's? That is essentially what all ST blockers are doing.
For tacklers, how much vision do you want your LB's to have when breaking down a play to make tackles? That's bescially what your ST tacklers are doing.
For returners, how much vision do you want your elusive backs to have when choosing where to run and how to pick up their blockers? That's basically what your returners are doing.

Hope this helps you out, fogie.

thanks for the input. any other opinions?

Yeah thats a good question I don't know if my end build Gunner (VBP) will have enough vision but I really don't think I can swap vision with any other skills on my end build


Attributes:
strength : 89.1
speed : 102.1
agility : 87.1
jumping : 50.26
stamina : 62.26
vision : 62.26
confidence : 29.26
tackling : 90.1

Originally posted by Kboum
Yeah thats a good question I don't know if my end build Gunner (VBP) will have enough vision but I really don't think I can swap vision with any other skills on my end build


Attributes:
strength : 89.1
speed : 102.1
agility : 87.1
jumping : 50.26
stamina : 62.26
vision : 62.26
confidence : 29.26
tackling : 90.1


is 90 tackling really that important for ST's? It seems like you could sacrifice a little there and make up for it with VA's and SA's. Especially for a gunner. of course you want him to have a chance to force fumbles, but if his vision is lacking he might miss more tackles or take poor angles more often and not even get a chance at tackling. Less tackling and more vision could be better as long as you add some SA's and VA's like sure tackler, wrap up tackle, diving tackle and things like avoid fake %.....

Tackle is very important for forcing fumbles

Originally posted by Bane
Tackle is very important for forcing fumbles

Right, but is the lack of vision going to hurt the ability to even make the tackle in the first place? I've never really made a true fumble forcing gunner or payed much attention to them... How many fumbles does a good fumble forcing gunner actually produce in a season (not counting blowout wins)? Sacrifice 1 or 2 fumbles through the season or gain 5 or more tackles during the season preventing X amount of big returns or TD's? Maybe 60ish vision is perfectly fine, but I don't know.

If he's a true gunner, he doesn't to have that much agility, imo. I like speed, with strength tackle duo train, or trip train with vision. It would make sense you want him running top speed as much as possible, not dancing around with agility. He won't be near top speed when he tackles.

Originally posted by Sick Daddy
If he's a true gunner, he doesn't to have that much agility, imo. I like speed, with strength tackle duo train, or trip train with vision. It would make sense you want him running top speed as much as possible, not dancing around with agility. He won't be near top speed when he tackles.

why be able to turn left or right? if the returner doesnt run straight at you, you might as well not even have your dot worry about it.

with your logic, he might as well only have speed and tackling.


Originally posted by XtremeT13
Right, but is the lack of vision going to hurt the ability to even make the tackle in the first place? I've never really made a true fumble forcing gunner or payed much attention to them... How many fumbles does a good fumble forcing gunner actually produce in a season (not counting blowout wins)? Sacrifice 1 or 2 fumbles through the season or gain 5 or more tackles during the season preventing X amount of big returns or TD's? Maybe 60ish vision is perfectly fine, but I don't know.
ill take the 2 extra FFs in an important game tbh. he isnt the only one making tackles but he's probably the only one built to FFs

I have guys doing fine without agility as a top 3 priority. That's all i'm saying.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I list, in order of importance, skills for ST's as follows; Speed, Agility, Strength, Vision, Blocking/Tackling.


It depends on which player on the S.T.U. you are referring to.

Yes Speed, Vision and Agility are important if you are building a player to play the Wedge.

Than you have your Gunners who are also going to try and be your FF guys and than you need Speed, Agility, Strength.

But, if you are building a dual STOP to play both the return teams and the punt teams you need someone who can have Speed, Vision, Agility, Strength.

As far as the OP and his question, it depends on where you are playing depending on what importance Vision is.

Originally posted by Ghetto Witch Dr
It depends on which player on the S.T.U. you are referring to.

Yes Speed, Vision and Agility are important if you are building a player to play the Wedge.

Than you have your Gunners who are also going to try and be your FF guys and than you need Speed, Agility, Strength.

But, if you are building a dual STOP to play both the return teams and the punt teams you need someone who can have Speed, Vision, Agility, Strength.

As far as the OP and his question, it depends on where you are playing depending on what importance Vision is.

Yeah. I guess I could've taken it a bit farther and said I prefer more agility on the outside... more strength on the inside. I'm really trying to keep it pretty simple though as far as the post goes. Not to "keep my ST secrets" but to not make things confusing.
As far as vision is concerned, it's pretty static across the ST spectrum. You don't want weak vision on your ST's or your dots simply run into blocks/tackles... and you don't need a TON of vision to make your ST dots work fine. Somewhere between 1st cap and 4th cap is enough. More is always better but not if it means you're sacrificing more important skills such as speed, agility, and strength.

As for this...

Originally posted by XtremeT13
is 90 tackling really that important for ST's? It seems like you could sacrifice a little there and make up for it with VA's and SA's. Especially for a gunner. of course you want him to have a chance to force fumbles, but if his vision is lacking he might miss more tackles or take poor angles more often and not even get a chance at tackling. Less tackling and more vision could be better as long as you add some SA's and VA's like sure tackler, wrap up tackle, diving tackle and things like avoid fake %.....

Originally posted by Bane
Tackle is very important for forcing fumbles

... Bane is closer to the truth here. I'm not sure having 90 tackling is a prerequisite, but you surely want to avoid sad low numbers. Sometimes that just isn't possible. Sometimes you have what you have for ST dots to work with. Like sometimes you end up using WR's with 8 blocking... or CB's with 8 strength. Then you need to really watch where you put these dots and keep them from key areas. They can still do quality work... even if it's being a temporary road block. They'll get caked a lot... but if they can hold a block for only a little bit, they force the play to make choices and can allow other dots to make plays because of that.

Originally posted by Bane
Tackle is very important for forcing fumbles

I am finding in my own experiment that strength>tacking works better than the reverse (at low levels), but only if both are going to end up 90-100 each.

Originally posted by ezra_
I am finding in my own experiment that strength>tacking works better than the reverse (at low levels), but only if both are going to end up 90-100 each.

I dunno about strength effecting tackling... but is sure has an effect on blocks/breaking blocks (aka, cakes and revcakes). As for tackling for tackling's sake, I've seen too many times where a 20 (or worse) tackle skilled dot makes the diving tackle on the returner. That said, I STILL think it's important... just not quite as important as blocking (talking only STOP archetypes here) and my reason(s) for that is it's harder to assemble, from the available players, a quality offensive ST lineup (punt and kick returns)... than it is to put together a defensive ST lineup (stopping punt and kick returns). That's where STOPS really help out most (offensive returns). Also, it just seems like it's easier to make a tackle than to make, and hold, a block on ST's. Probably because (as above) you can fill your defensive return teams with plenty of "good tacklers" with plenty of speed, agility, and vision (and tackling)... where as, on the offensive side, most O-linemen are too slow... the FB's that are blocking FB's usually attack speed LATER in the build... and blocking TE's aren't speed friendly either. WR's have speed, but very few can block... same with HB's.
I agree about your end-point though. Although, for stops, I'd have it in this order :Strength, blocking, tackling (after speed and agility, of course).