Warrior General Games

Opinions on which is more valuable?

second wind gives a flat return on morale and energy... workhorse gives a boost to stamina to help prevent your energy from draining but does nothing for morale. It all depends on where your dots are struggling.

If you have enough stamina to make Workhorse a worth it selection you probably have too much stamina.

Originally posted by bhall43
If you have enough stamina to make Workhorse a worth it selection you probably have too much stamina.
I don't know that any dots have too much stamina, but there certainly are diminishing returns, so a dot with that much stamina probably doesn't need Workhorse. Second Wind is likely the better choice.

Originally posted by jdbolick

I don't know that any dots have too much stamina, but there certainly are diminishing returns, so a dot with that much stamina probably doesn't need Workhorse. Second Wind is likely the better choice.

To get the kinda of return you are gonna want from an attribute VA...its likely you have that attribute already in the 80's. That is too much stamina.

You don't need to be that high to invest in an attribute VA. I also don't think 80 is too much if the dot is playing a lot. People don't go that high because they use backups to achieve the same thing without skill point investment, but it's a legitimate option given the significance of a 2+% penalty from lost energy.

At what point does the contest between an OL w/maxed out STR, Overpower etc versus a DL w/maxed out STR, Bullrusher, etc turn to STA for the tie breaker? hmmm.
Back to the Future..Season 1.

Originally posted by BigRatUno
At what point does the contest between an OL w/maxed out STR, Overpower etc versus a DL w/maxed out STR, Bullrusher, etc turn to STA for the tie breaker? hmmm.
Back to the Future..Season 1.

im not sure stamina has an affect on the roll. Stamina keeps your energy levels up, but i dont think it ties directly into the roll as a modifier. I could be wrong though.

Originally posted by gbororats
im not sure stamina has an affect on the roll. Stamina keeps your energy levels up, but i dont think it ties directly into the roll as a modifier. I could be wrong though.



energy is your attribute modifier. so in a way...ya it does.

Originally posted by jdbolick

I don't know that any dots have too much stamina, but there certainly are diminishing returns, so a dot with that much stamina probably doesn't need Workhorse. Second Wind is likely the better choice.

I totally agree with this and would add always keep in mind WHERE your dots plays. A dot that plays on ST's will suck down it's stamina WAY more than one that doesn't. A QB (and kicker and, to some extent, a punter) doesn't need nearly as much stamina as a HB does. I have actually put TOO much into stamina and gotten some of those "diminishing returns". I would advise that, as long as your dot consistently has more than 1/2 a bar of stamina left at the end of games, then stamina isn't a big issue with your build.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I would advise that, as long as your dot consistently has more than 1/2 a bar of stamina left at the end of games, then stamina isn't a big issue with your build.
If you're coming anywhere close to half the bar being lost then you're losing way too much energy. At plateau you would like to finish every game with at least 85 energy, otherwise you're risking performance. I believe it was stated that every 10 points of energy lost equates to a 1% penalty on attributes.

Originally posted by jdbolick

If you're coming anywhere close to half the bar being lost then you're losing way too much energy. At plateau you would like to finish every game with at least 85 energy, otherwise you're risking performance. I believe it was stated that every 10 points of energy lost equates to a 1% penalty on attributes.


i remember Bort said morale is similar to Chem, 10 point equal to 1% attribute loss, but I can't remember if it apply to energy....

i seem to remember 9% attribute loss for each 10 points of energy. A completely energy spent dot still has 10% to crawl around with.

Just so people don't have to go look them up or do math...

Second Wind
Crunch time brings out the best in some players. Each level of Second Wind gives a +1 refill to energy to start the 4th quarter, regardless of stamina. In addition, each level gives a +.5 refill to energy when the score is within 7 at the 2 minute warning.

That works out to a max of +15 energy at the start of Q4 and +7.5 energy when the score is within 7 at the 2 minute warning.

Workhorse
This player just keeps on going. Each level of Workhorse gives a +0.5% bonus to the stamina attribute.

That works out to a max +7.5% bonus to Stamina. If you have 40 natural Stamina, the bonus would take you to 43. If you have 50 natural Stamina, the bonus would take you to 53.75. If you have 60, the bonus would take you to 64.5. If you have 70, the bonus would take you to 75.25. If you have 80 Stamina, the bonus would take you to 86, but you need to have your meds adjusted for thinking this 80 Stamina is a good idea.

Given the choice, Second Wind is a better value in my mind.

However, there are certain builds and positions where I could see Workhorse being useful LATER in your VA plans AFTER you've maxed Second Wind out at 15 already and are out of other good VAs to max out. But I have to think for most dots, there are better things to spend VA points on than Workhorse.

Originally posted by jdbolick

If you're coming anywhere close to half the bar being lost then you're losing way too much energy. At plateau you would like to finish every game with at least 85 energy, otherwise you're risking performance. I believe it was stated that every 10 points of energy lost equates to a 1% penalty on attributes.


Good info to know JD. Thanks. Will push stamina just a little more then. Most of my plateau dots do come in between 65 and 90% remaining.

(P.S. You too Novus. That was some good info.)