Warrior General Games

inspiring thread: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4822716
play by play link: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1925915&mode=pbp
issue summary: game tied, offense with 1 time out left in field goal range, last 15+ seconds of regulation just ran out without the timeout being called

Originally posted by PBP
Cambridge Erudite Dicks 2:20
2:20 4th & 8 OPP 36.5 Punt by P Kick You In The Paris, 32 yd (out of bounds)
2:14 1st & 10 OWN 5 Dakotah Hayward rush up the middle (2 yd gain) [Monster Hit tackle: Jay Paris]
2:00 2nd & 8 OWN 7 Michael Bishop pitch to Darion Sharpe to the right (9.5 yd gain) [tackle: Kelly Paris]
1:44 1st & 10 OWN 16.5 Dakotah Hayward rush up the middle (2 yd gain) [tackle: Kpizzle Paris]
1:24 2nd & 8 OWN 18.5 Jose Elway 2.0 sacked by Paris Stomper (7 yd loss)
1:19 3rd & 15 OWN 11.5 Defensive Timeout Called: Paris Smexies (#1)
1:19 3rd & 15 OWN 11.5 Jose Elway 2.0 pass to Tommy Thompson up the left side, caught (6 yd gain) [diving tackle: Jay Paris]
1:15 4th & 8.5 OWN 17.5 Defensive Timeout Called: Paris Smexies (#2)

Paris Smexies 1:15
1:15 4th & 8.5 OWN 17.5 Punt by Francois Bonaparte, 50 yd, fielded by One Night Stand (16.5 yd return) [tackle: .Asante. .Samuel.]
1:06 1st & 10 OWN 49 Ms.Pass Happy Paris pitch to Blame Paris II to the right (25 yd gain) [tackle: jay beau]
0:43 1st & 10 OPP 26.5 Blame Paris II rush up the middle (1.5 yd gain) [diving tackle: Shadow Crusher]
0:21 2nd & 8.5 OPP 25 Ms.Pass Happy Paris pass to Miss Sweet Britches Paris, hurried by Geoffrey Dick, up the right side, caught (3.5 yd gain) [tackle: Jayron Todd Hosley]

5th Quarter

Currently, the clock logic is set up such that if Paris had a field goal in their AI with 21 seconds left, the clock would have run down and the FG would have been attempted with 1 second left. In the current sim, that would have been Paris' best option. This is a big improvement over the old days in which the team would have already burned their third timeout long ago, and they would have to kick the FG with 21 seconds left, enough for the other team to return a kickoff and maybe throw a bomb or two to get into FG range.

There is still room for improvement here, though. A team should be able to run a play on 2nd down with 21 seconds left and then still use their last timeout afterward. This seems pretty obvious to me.

I think what the sim is doing is this:
-Play begins: 21 seconds left
-Play ends: 17 seconds left
-Sim checks AI based on the time, score, timeouts, downs, etc
-Sim checks the timeout logic based on the AI output, time, score, timeouts, downs, etc
-Timeout logic is to not call a timeout with 17 seconds left, which makes sense because the offense would rather kick a FG with 1 second left than with 17 seconds left.
-Sim does some RNG and decides it needs maybe 20 seconds to get the next play off.
-20 seconds ticks off, quarter ends

I believe that the problem here is that it's not checking again with 1 second left or with any other amount of time left. But it should.

Here's another reason the "Set your AI to kick a FG and it will run the clock down to 1 second" method is not a good enough answer here. It only works when the clock is running. If Paris were in the exact same situation with 21 seconds and 1 timeout, only the clock were stopped, they don't have a good option in the current sim. They pretty much have to kick it with 18 seconds left, even though it's second down and they still have a timeout left. That just ain't right. It's a no-win situation for the play-caller there.

So here's my suggestion:
The sim should always check the offense AI with 1 second left in the 4th quarter if the offense still has 1 or more timeouts left. That way, if the team is tied or trailing, and the AI output with 1 second left is anything other than a punt or kneel, the timeout should be used.

0:21 2nd & 8.5 OPP 25 Ms.Pass Happy Paris pass to Miss Sweet Britches Paris, hurried by Geoffrey Dick, up the right side, caught (3.5 yd gain) [tackle: Jayron Todd Hosley]

Maybe have the sim read this and do a quick run play. Then have a timeout for 3rd down?

+1 I like the idea of wanting to wait till the last second of the game

Uhh.. you can accomplish this with a proper AI.

-1

Originally posted by IdRatherFlyFish
Uhh.. you can accomplish this with a proper AI.

-1

Did you even read what I wrote?

I saw your post in the other thread. An input to kick with 11 seconds or left, which you suggested, would do nothing to help in this scenario.

And like I said, had Paris been in the same situation with the clock stopped, then there's no way for them to run down any more time before they kick the field goal even though they still have a timeout left.

Bottom line: This thread is a suggestion, not a bug, because yes there is a workaround that can help in most cases. Basically, if the clock is running, set to kick the FG rather early and the clock will run down. But it's not very obvious to users how it works, and whether there's a workaround or not it is ridiculous to deny that there's no good reason for the sim not to call a timeout in this case.

I am not trying to be argumentative here Trevjo. but since you have admitted that this could be addressed through a input in the AI. then what are you really talking about. I could see if it was in casual since casual has no AI. but this problem falls on the coordinators in my opinion. I can understand what you are saying and again I am not trying to argue at all. I just don't see the need in doing this since it can be addressed with a input in a regular AI.

Gosh TrevJo -- I think I should be allowed an opinion, even if it differs from yours.

I did not offer any AI input to solve this. Please don't take what I say in one thread and apply it to a different thread.

Peace,

Fish

Originally posted by hatchman
I am not trying to be argumentative here Trevjo. but since you have admitted that this could be addressed through a input in the AI. then what are you really talking about. I could see if it was in casual since casual has no AI. but this problem falls on the coordinators in my opinion. I can understand what you are saying and again I am not trying to argue at all. I just don't see the need in doing this since it can be addressed with a input in a regular AI.

What am I really talking about? I'm talking about the absurdity of not calling a timeout and just letting the last 17 seconds drip off the clock even though the offense is in field goal range. You don't think that is messed up? That it is worthy of a suggestion to be changed?

There are lots of things in every piece of software that can be addressed in some way by the user if they really understand what is going on behind the scenes. That doesn't mean that such tricky and counter-intuitive issues should not be addressed.

And again, there are several slight variances on this scenario that can NOT be addressed through an input in the AI:
-As already mentioned, if the clock were stopped at 21 seconds, the OC is screwed. They have no choice but to attempt the kick and give the other team time to score on the next possession.
-Alternately, imagine that the offense is on the very edge of field goal range. Shouldn't they be able to run one more play and try to get to a more makeable distance? After all, they still have a timeout left.

I've been very involved with timeout/clock management logic for years now. It used to be that more than 30 seconds could run off on a coordinator in this same situation, trust me, I found out the hard way. I pushed for change and that helped result in the workaround that exists now.
But in my opinion it's not good enough. One basic fundamental problem still has not been addressed: That the sim only checks the AI based on the time at the end of the previous play, it doesn't keep checking it as the clock winds down in between plays. That's what I am really talking about. Until that is fixed, people are going to keep having problems with time running out unexpectedly.

The way it is now, if you have one input for 8 seconds or less, followed by another input for 15 seconds or less, neither of them will get looked at by the sim if a play ends with 16 seconds left.

Originally posted by IdRatherFlyFish
Gosh TrevJo -- I think I should be allowed an opinion, even if it differs from yours.

I did not offer any AI input to solve this. Please don't take what I say in one thread and apply it to a different thread.

Peace,

Fish

You said it can be addressed by proper AI. In the other thread you suggested the AI to use to fix it. The AI you suggested would not help. My point is that this issue is much more difficult for users to understand and handle in their AI than you claim, as evidenced in part by the fact that you don't understand it yourself. While there are some good things about the timeout logic, this particular oddity really is screwy and just dumb.

I did not read the other thread but if I'm understanding the suggestion here, it seems the issues here to be:

1) It appears the offense did not have an AI input to trigger a FG attempt (thats on the OC)
2) The offense has 1 timeout remaining & does not even use it after a play that clearly should not take 21 secs to finish. Since there is no AI ability for "Call Timeout" possible...you couldn't run down the clock to 1 sec if you wanted to (which is the smart thing to do).
3) Following on the 2nd point...why wouldn't the offense even attempt another play given the nature of hurry up offense?

Seems to me the 1st point is obvious & something the OC can/should correct.

Seems to me the 2nd point would be a good suggestion to add a "Timeout" "Play Type" under the list of Output options (just like QB Spike...which is a workaround so long as it isnt 4th down).

Seems to me the 3rd point showcases the issue with how much time is run down in hurry up mode. It took 23 secs to run a 25 yd completion, get set, and snap the ball for the next play...yet it took 22 secs for a 1.5 yd run and 21 secs (or more presumably) for a 3.5 yd completion. If it takes 22 secs for the linemen and everybody else to get back to where they can snap the ball again after a 1.5 yd run...then it shouldn't take only 23 secs to get down the field after a 25 yd completion. Or vise versa (i.e. the short run & the short pass should be more like 15-18 secs).

Regardless of whether there is an issue to be fixed in the 3rd point...I think I'd suggest the ability to add an AI option to the "Play Type" dropdown box for Timeout.

But since Bort has never allowed us to call our own timeouts I suppose the viable suggestion truly is to fix the AI to call an offensive timeout when trailing or tied...and when the offense is within its specified FG Range. or make it easy...call TO when trailing or tied and at Own 40 to Opp Goal.

Did I read all that right?

Originally posted by SteveMax58
But since Bort has never allowed us to call our own timeouts I suppose the viable suggestion truly is to fix the AI to call an offensive timeout when trailing or tied...and when the offense is within its specified FG Range. or make it easy...call TO when trailing or tied and at Own 40 to Opp Goal.

Yeah. He could do it based on field position or just based on what the offense's play call would be with 1 second left. The timeout and hurry up logic already take into account what the offense's play call is. It just needs to do a check at 1 second even if the last play ended with more than 1 second left.

Originally posted by TrevJo
You said it can be addressed by proper AI. In the other thread you suggested the AI to use to fix it. The AI you suggested would not help. My point is that this issue is much more difficult for users to understand and handle in their AI than you claim, as evidenced in part by the fact that you don't understand it yourself. While there are some good things about the timeout logic, this particular oddity really is screwy and just dumb.

/yawn

ITT:

-TrevJo points out his own AI mistake, and is trying to get an over-all fix so others don't do same

-SteveMax points out the bigger flaw, that certain plays that would logically take longer to get set for, seem to take the same amount of time as a 1.5 yard inside run

-Hatchetman says "why tie up my time reading this?, see the first part of #1 above"

-IdRatherFlyFish is too tired to respond to the "suggestion" due to too many bugs threads and feeling attacked


does this sum it up?

Originally posted by We_Rule
ITT:

-TrevJo points out his own AI mistake, and is trying to get an over-all fix so others don't do same

It's not my team. It's not my mistake. I'm just a guy that is a proponent for better sim timeout logic.

I would like to get this thread back on track, please. We don't need another summary of the posts in this thread.

Discussion of the suggestion: Should the sim or should the sim not call a timeout with 1 second left in a tie game? I suggest that it should.

Originally posted by IdRatherFlyFish
Uhh.. you can accomplish this with a proper AI.

-1

Comments like this from people who represent the game are fucking pointless and classless...

Fire this person now...

Thanks