Warrior General Games

This makes no sense to me.

Two Ks, levels 12 and 39. The level 39 has 125 Kicking (w/ eq) and 54 Strength; he also has 10 in Booming Kick and 4 Big Boot. He averaged 55.1 yards on 41 kickoffs this season. The build is open.

The level 12 has 88 Kicking, 22 Strength and of course no SAs (other than CEQ) or VAs. He averaged 51.9 yards on 184 kickoffs this season.

Barely a difference of 3 yards! Now I know there is more that goes into a KO than what I've listed, but that is a significant difference in things that should be contributing to kickoffs. I know it's Strength (in combination with everythig else) that will eventually get the 39 the longer KOs, but one would think that with the difference at this point, the net would be larger. I haven't done the math, but if you did, you could argue that at this rate he will need Strength in the 200 range to boot some KOs to the endzone.

So there must be a 'tipping point' in Strength. A Strength level where everything else begins to kick in almost all at once and his KO distance goes up exponentially.

So what is that tipping point? And more importantly, should I forgo taking Vision to 77 at this point and instead move to Strength?

It's not that there's a tipping point. It's that there's a bottom end on distance that cannot be crossed. Think about a situation with kickers kicking 5 yard KOs. It would be ridiculous. Instead of changing where kickers kick from, bort simply said "No kicker will kick off less than X yards". My level 39 kicker actually averaged less than yours with more strength. (but he also has 6 less kicking because I haven't purchased CE)

And definitely don't change your plan based on short kickoffs, unless you're concerned about performance now.

Personally, with age based leagues now, bort should probably consider simply moving the kickoff point by league and dramatically lowering the bottom end of the kickoff range. Say perhaps start young guys kicking from the 50 and work back as they approach 400 to the 30.

Got it. Thanks. And some good ideas.

Btw, is the build okay at this point? Does he have a future?

Originally posted by Flippin Hog
Got it. Thanks. And some good ideas.

Btw, is the build okay at this point? Does he have a future?

Looks fine. Keep pushing vision to 6th cap. No more SP in strength (or anything else) until that's done

Originally posted by TheGreatPuma
Originally posted by Flippin Hog

Got it. Thanks. And some good ideas.

Btw, is the build okay at this point? Does he have a future?

Looks fine. Keep pushing vision to 6th cap. No more SP in strength (or anything else) until that's done

Haven't put a single SP in Strength. It's been MTed since the beginning though. MT ftw!

Originally posted by Flippin Hog
Haven't put a single SP in Strength. It's been MTed since the beginning though. MT ftw!

Listen to Puma,he knows his sh -tuff about Kickers.

Originally posted by Flippin Hog
Haven't put a single SP in Strength. It's been MTed since the beginning though. MT ftw!

Actually, that makes me sad. I can't fathom training something through the 40s that I intended to take higher than 60. You'd have been much better off spending SP to cap it once it got around 40.

not that it has bearing on what you are saying, GP, but I have one punter with 63 vision, still training it on intense 50% bonus. lol.

Originally posted by Sick Daddy
not that it has bearing on what you are saying, GP, but I have one punter with 63 vision, still training it on intense 50% bonus. lol.

No problems training at that level. What is a waste is training anywhere near the next cap. If you were training at 66/67 then I'd be concerned; unless of course you intended to stop at 68.

Originally posted by TheGreatPuma
Actually, that makes me sad. I can't fathom training something through the 40s that I intended to take higher than 60. You'd have been much better off spending SP to cap it once it got around 40.

Sad? Wow, it's only a game. That's one of the best things about the new training system to me, there's more than one way to build a great dot. See, I can't fathom putting SP into a non-major before at least the first two attributes are capped and probably the first three. You might be surprised how effective MTing x 4 with a 30-40% bonus is for an attribute, even in the 40s.

It's effective, but it would've been better if you used a few SP's to cap it once the attribute got to 40-44 for efficiencies sake, and then continued training.

Just looking through my notes, I actually did; at 44. At that point, I was thinking about going Strength before Vision. Big mistake, I know. So, I switched back to Vision. I thought I'd wasted some SPs though. Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all. So you guys are saying that when you get close to a cap on a 3rd or 4th attribute, just cap it and keep training?

And the question is still out there, at what point (Kicking, Strength, SAs, VAs) can a K expect to begin kicking off significantly farther than a level 1?

Originally posted by Flippin Hog
And the question is still out there, at what point (Kicking, Strength, SAs, VAs) can a K expect to begin kicking off significantly farther than a level 1?

Who knows. Why not track it and let us know. My guess is it slowly works up as BB, Str, and Kicking all increase. It's not like one game you have 100 kicking 20 str and 0 BB and the next you have 150/90/10.


Originally posted by Flippin Hog
Just looking through my notes, I actually did; at 44. At that point, I was thinking about going Strength before Vision. Big mistake, I know. So, I switched back to Vision. I thought I'd wasted some SPs though. Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all. So you guys are saying that when you get close to a cap on a 3rd or 4th attribute, just cap it and keep training?

No apology necessary. Yes, essentially. See, training an attr at 40 gives about 15%. Training same attribute at 50 yields 11%. However, the key point to remember is that one Attribute Point at level 50 is worth 2 SP. So to compare properly you must double the 11% to 22%. So training at 40 you're actually losing 7% per train if you could otherwise cap the attribute.

I'm not sure where the cut-offs are at the higher caps, but you can easily figure them out for your own scenario. As for spending SP in a non-major attribute before done with your majors, in general I agree with that statement. However, there are times (such as this one) where spending 8 or so SP on a minor can provide more end game benefit than dumping it into an attribute that's already high. TBH though, I don't like training minor attributes at all early on on kickers and punters. I generally don't start that until all my majors are capped.

Yeah, I guess this thread was started out of frustration when I noticed the small difference in KOs between those two dots. I don't expect my 39 to be kicking it out of the back of the endzone. But....well, you know, 3 yards?!? I'll make some notes from here on out. We'll see.

The rest makes perfect sense. Just when you think you're getting pretty good at this dot building, you get humbled and learn something simple that you haven't been doing. Thanks.