Warrior General Games

Strength:50.9 Blocking:8
Speed:78.22 (+8) Tackling:21.82
Agility:86.92 (+8) Throwing:8
Jumping:7.6 Catching:8
Stamina:22.7 Carrying:8
Vision:21.12 Kicking:8
Confidence:17.6 Punting:8

Do I go with Technique Man? Pass Rusher? Think my vision is too low for Jump the Snap. Does the requirement that the OT have less than 10% agility for TM to work include EQ or is it just the base agility? If anyone cares to throw in any build advice too I'm listening.

i went technique man first, as it sounds like it fires all the time, provided the blocked has less agility, which he will. pass rusher is limited to two downs but it is the one i started on next. i thought my vision was low for JTS and i have 53 vision so i wouldn't do that yet, if i were you.

the opposite is actually true for JTS... you actually want it when you have low vision since when you have high vision you will be able to get off on the first tick anyways... so JTS would essentially be a wasted VA. will you get more encroachment penalties with JTS and low vision? yes, but how many do you get now? now mutliply that by 1.15... it still isnt that many.

Are you sure about that worker? JTS is multiplicative.
Lets say you have 20 vision and say that you have a 10% chance of jumping the snap.
If you have 15 jts that would bring you up to 15%.
If you have vision 60 you might have a 50% chance of jumping the snap with out jts. That would bring you to a 73% with it.

I think you should play to your strengths with VA not try to make up for weaknesses.

yeah, but if you are getting off the line on the first tick (or very close to the first tick) without the VA, then it becomes a useless VA... and when you have 70 vision (which most DL will be getting to if not exceeding with the new archetypes.. heck, a good amount of DL already have that), that is going to be most of the time. its ok to have before you get vision that high. but, when you do get it that high, there wont be too much of a difference with or without it.

i mean, i agree. it is best to play to your strengths... but in this case, there is a point where you cant get any or much better. its not like you can get off on the -1st tick. i would much rather take other VAs, as they will help you a lot more.

and fwiw, i dont see a lot of WL DL with JTS... and the majority of ones i have seen that have it, have sub 70 vision.

70 vision? Let's stay on topic. The dude has 20. I don't see how someone with 20 vision would be getting anything out of jts.

I get you point if you have extreme high vision it would become redundant, but there has to be range where it's worth while. I don't think he's in that range yet.
It's probably most effective between something like 40 & 60. So he'd have some time before he should start using it.

My example was to ask why it would be good to have for him now.

thats exactly the point. he has 20, and it is more effective at 20 then it would be as an end of build VA.

and how do you not see someone getting any benefit from JTS with only 20 vision?? as you pointed out, it may very well be effective at vision of 40 or 60... but if you look back at my posts i never recommended JTS. i simply stated that its better with lower vision then compared to if you had higher vision simply because you start getting what JTS gives you without needing the bonus that JTS gives you.

Originally posted by dragon2o00
i went technique man first, as it sounds like it fires all the time, provided the blocked has less agility, which he will. pass rusher is limited to two downs but it is the one i started on next. i thought my vision was low for JTS and i have 53 vision so i wouldn't do that yet, if i were you.

53 vision is not too low for JTS. and as you get vision up, its going to start to lose its value.

That is not the point. The point is that it will be valuable in 3-4 seasons. Not now.

How do i not see it? Well i'll go back to my original post:
----
Lets say you have 20 vision and say that you have a 10% chance of jumping the snap.
If you have 15 jts that would bring you up to 15%.
----
Not much of a bonus compared to what you'd get out of tm or pr.
In additon to that you are going to have more encroachment % so the penalty will be worse.

I don't know where your information is coming from here. No one has told me that if you get vision 70 you'll jump the snap more than 68% (68 * 1.45 = 98%) of the time. And if you do jump it 75% of the time than it would still be worth it to have jts = 10 (75*1.3=97.5%).

Side note; most people on this board tell me to take vision up to 60 not 70 for a de.

replies in bold

Originally posted by TheRawDog
That is not the point. The point is that it will be valuable in 3-4 seasons. Not now.

How do i not see it? Well i'll go back to my original post:
----
Lets say you have 20 vision and say that you have a 10% chance of jumping the snap.
If you have 15 jts that would bring you up to 15%.

and how do you know that the base chance with 20 vision is 10%? i do agree that with high base chance it will obviously be more effective, but since we have no clue what the base chance really is, we cannot simply apply a random % to it and say that is the way it is. since we cannot use math, we are forced to use beliefs and perceptions, which makes the entire situation relative, again, to prior experience (see descartes). but then the question arises about which of our perceptions, if any are actually correct. you have your proof, and i have my proof (which happens to be knowing what quite a few WL DT and DE builds look like)...

but in short... again, you cant just assign a random % to a number in a system which you know nothing about and use that for argument. doesnt make sense... especially when you factor in the RNG

----
Not much of a bonus compared to what you'd get out of tm or pr.
In additon to that you are going to have more encroachment % so the penalty will be worse.

and again... i never, not once have said that the OP should take JTS as a VA... now or even ever. i would agree that both technique man and pass rusher are better options. i think we really are ultimately agreeing on the same thing... your just focusing on the wrong portion of my posts. if you read the last bit of my last post, i quoted the 2nd post in this thread which stated that 53 vision is too low for JTS. i think the opposite. if you start to take it too too much higher, JTS essentially becomes useless. 40-60 is a good time to get JTS... but if you want it outside that spectrum, i would take it under 40 rather than above 60 since it starts to become effectively useless. and as for encroachment penalties... i strongly encourage you to go count the number of encroachment penalties that a dot gets when they have low vision... i'll give you a hint... its about 1, if even that. increasing that buy 15% isnt going to hurt you too much if even at all.

I don't know where your information is coming from here. No one has told me that if you get vision 70 you'll jump the snap more than 68% (68 * 1.45 = 98%) of the time. And if you do jump it 75% of the time than it would still be worth it to have jts = 10 (75*1.3=97.5%).

has someone told you that they dont?? you dont have to prove a negative, while you do have to prove a positive. from what ive seen (which is again, high level dots on high leagues, 70 vision is enough to get you going on the first tick a fair number of times... and if you dont get off on the first tick, the chances of you getting off on the second tick are very very strong. would you really take a VA that gets you off the line 1 tick faster over a VA that further increases your break block roll?

Side note; most people on this board tell me to take vision up to 60 not 70 for a de.
well the people youre talking to are probably talking about the current sim or are maybe even a bit behind. i see lots of top level DL with 70 vision, and with archetypes, you are probably going looking at DL with even more than that. wouldnt be surprised at all to see DL in the future with 80 vision.

"and how do you know that the base chance with 20 vision is 10%? i do agree that with high base chance it will obviously be more effective, but since we have no clue what the base chance really is, we cannot simply apply a random % to it and say that is the way it is. "

I don't know. But I know it's LOW. who cares what the exact % is. Perhaps its 3% or 8% or 14%. It's low and jts is dumb to have when you are increasing something low. I don't see why i can't just randomly pick a percentage and use that as an example.

"i never, not once have said that the OP should take JTS as a VA"
you said: "you actually want it when you have low vision"
That seemed like an endorsement but i understand.

I was just throwing in encroachment penalties. as an aside more than anything. I realize i hardly ever get them.

"would you really take a VA that gets you off the line 1 tick faster over a VA that further increases your break block roll? " I thought that by the time you get there you'd have pass rush and shed block maxed out.

We seem to agree with pretty much everything . If you use it, you use jts on seasons where you have vision 40 - 60 and if you get past 65 or so you reset it.

Originally posted by TheRawDog

"would you really take a VA that gets you off the line 1 tick faster over a VA that further increases your break block roll? " I thought that by the time you get there you'd have pass rush and shed block maxed out.


there are a lot of VAs that increase your break block roll or can make life miserable for the OL and QB. pass rusher, technique man, bull rusher, pocket crusher, streaky, heavy weight... all of which are better than sometimes getting off the snap 1 tick sooner. i see JTS as a good VA for blizting LBs (or DBs if you utilize one), and thats about it.

and yeah, i can see how my comments could have been taken as saying JTS is better when you vision is 20 as when compared to like 55... but i was merely commenting on the 2nd post in this thread, and saying that really almost the opposite of what they were saying is true. they said they had 53 vision and didnt think that was enough and were looking to to take it higher in order to help JTS be more effective... and while it would maybe be more effective if he took vision higher, it would be much less efficient in that he could use other VAs you help his break block roll than sometimes (and by sometimes i mean he would get off on the first tick with or without) get off the snap just a a tick sooner. in comparison to what that poster said, i was just saying that if he goes much higher than 53, he will stop seeing much use for JTS, and that in comparison to taking vision higher, vision being lower would actually be a better thing... again simply because he really wouldnt need JTS and it becomes all about VP use and efficiency.