Warrior General Games

And does equipment count? I always figured that 90+ was high agility. But what about 80 agility?

yes, equipment counts. I doubt you'd get open much with 80 agility on creative. Route Run SA can help.

I've had it on for a while... I just turned it off to see if theres any difference.

75+ works fine running creative.

"Requires high agility" is a bit misleading, the reason it requires high agility is you are trying to juke or otherwise fake the defender. If you don't have the other attributes, SAs, and VAs required to fool the defender, all you are doing is wasting time stutter stepping around when you could be running an actual route.

bort said, when creative running came out, that 70+ should work just fine. although, the higher agility, the better.

Well I think rsb has a point. I just changed my WR over to Creative and he has 80+ agility with decent vision and some Fake SAs from EQ and his production improved last game. Hopefully it continues to be successful.

I speak from experience, my team has had a couple of WRs with 80+ Agility but 1 point (or none) in Head Fake and Juke try it out at various times. In fact, one of them tried it out at the end of last season and the beginning of this one without telling me, here's an excerpt from the PM I sent his agent asking him to change:

Examples:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1023771&pbp_id=3795683
He's supposed to just run a post on this play, instead he fakes to the outside before cutting back inside. The play called was TE Drive.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1023771&pbp_id=3804770
Notice how slow he is early on before he suddenly speeds up when he is done trying to fake people. He was supposed to be the primary receiver but the QB checked down when he didn't get any separation.

Without the ability to make the DB freeze when you change directions, you can juke and cut all you want and any halfway decent DB will just shadow you.

Originally posted by zaustin
yes, equipment counts. I doubt you'd get open much with 80 agility on creative. Route Run SA can help.

how much Route Run SA would help??

I thought head fake and juke SAs don't being to trigger until you catch the ball? It's something I've been trying to figure out for a while... my WR has 85 agility and runs on creative. I don't know if it helps or hinders, but I've never seen him completely shake a CB with it.

He does not have much invested in either HF or Juke.

Originally posted by xman17
how much Route Run SA would help??

In the replays I linked above to demonstrate running on creative without any head fake or juke, the receiver is lined up at WR3 with 10+ Route Run and 15 in Slot Machine.

Originally posted by lunchbucket
I thought head fake and juke SAs don't being to trigger until you catch the ball? It's something I've been trying to figure out for a while... my WR has 85 agility and runs on creative. I don't know if it helps or hinders, but I've never seen him completely shake a CB with it.

I'll try to dig up the post, but I know for sure Bort has confirmed that players can use fake moves to try and get open while running a route.

I'm not positive, but I also think he has said that players without any head fake or juke can't attempt to fake a defender. I think it came up when players were asking about the "Return Man" VA giving a bonus to Head Fake, Juke, and Spin, all SAs that a CB doesn't normally have access to. Either that or it was mentioned when players were discussing putting +fake chance VAs and AEQ bonuses on returners.

That is why I would not be surprised to find out a WR without them can't fake defenders no matter what his advanced tactics are set to. The description of creative route running even uses the phrase "use juke type moves to get away from defenders" when describing what it does. If the defender can change directions worth a damn, you aren't going to lose him unless you can freeze him. Even if you have Juke and Head Fake, you would need bonuses from VAs and AEQ to get it to work regularly since most CBs have pretty decent vision and tons of Superior Vision. Even if you do freeze him for a moment, you also have to remember that Ball Hawk will probably help him quickly regain lost ground as soon as he sees the pass (and again, he probably has tons of Super Vision to do that very quickly).

Originally posted by xman17
how much Route Run SA would help??

Strange question. Um, lots?

Originally posted by rsb014
I'll try to dig up the post, but I know for sure Bort has confirmed that players can use fake moves to try and get open while running a route.

I'm not positive, but I also think he has said that players without any head fake or juke can't attempt to fake a defender. I think it came up when players were asking about the "Return Man" VA giving a bonus to Head Fake, Juke, and Spin, all SAs that a CB doesn't normally have access to. Either that or it was mentioned when players were discussing putting +fake chance VAs and AEQ bonuses on returners.

That is why I would not be surprised to find out a WR without them can't fake defenders no matter what his advanced tactics are set to. The description of creative route running even uses the phrase "use juke type moves to get away from defenders" when describing what it does. If the defender can change directions worth a damn, you aren't going to lose him unless you can freeze him. Even if you have Juke and Head Fake, you would need bonuses from VAs and AEQ to get it to work regularly since most CBs have pretty decent vision and tons of Superior Vision. Even if you do freeze him for a moment, you also have to remember that Ball Hawk will probably help him quickly regain lost ground as soon as he sees the pass (and again, he probably has tons of Super Vision to do that very quickly).

If you have EQ in the speedster tree, you have fakes. Here is something to remember though:

Jukes can fire on cuts regardless of route running style. Creative refers only to that little 'wiggle' at the very onset of the route. It used to work for my WR freezing the CB, but anymore it's not really helpful. I just rely on his juke abilities to fire on cuts.

The 'wiggle' has always slowed the WR down, but it seems to slow them down a lot more now than it used to.

General consensus: If you don't have amazing fake ability, stick with normal route running no matter how much agility you have or what other SAs you invested in.