Warrior General Games

I'm posting this here because it's relevant to the current "What can be done about Pee Wee" discussion. However the impetus of it extends to the suggestion process as a whole. Also because since it's a Pee Wee forum, it's less likely to be viewed by mods, who could understandably be offended with their efforts being scrutinized.

This isn't meant to marginalize anyone's efforts... Time Trial, enasty, and Rob have all been working pretty diligently on separate methods to find some sort of amicable resolution and bring together the most active segments of the Pee Wee userbase... but earlier today i began to wonder "what sort of feedback the mods would give us today in the suggestions thread"... that led to research on what had been given attention instead, and eventually, how other, better received, ideas fared.


First mod response times to the Suggestions thread
Oct 27, 2009 06:18:34
Oct 27, 2009 12:38:43

they were reasonably active in the discussion over the course of the day, while attending to other threads as well.

last mod response time (checked as recently as a few minutes before this is posted)
Oct 27, 2009 23:45:16

the thread was bumped in order to regain attention at Oct 28, 2009 13:34:18

current time (see timestamp):

other ideas being responded to by mods:

Bugs/Suggestions that Require Little/No Effort to Fix
Oct 28, 2009 08:26:57

Private Scrimmages
Oct 28, 2009 11:40:14

Field Goal Replay
Oct 28, 2009 12:04:41

Team Captain / 2 Alternates
Oct 28, 2009 12:06:38

Fix between-play clock usage
Oct 28, 2009 12:35:19

*bump occurred during this time, thread was commented on since then by normal user*
So anything below was basically given preference over the Pee Wee passing thread. (not in an evil way "screw those guys" way, but in a literal "the threads made it ABOVE the Pee Wee passing thread" way. Giving one thing attention over another is by definition, preference)

pro bowl rings
Oct 28, 2009 15:43:05

Intentional Grounding needs to be added to the game -
Oct 28, 2009 15:30:47

reset Attributes! (locked, for good reason)
Oct 28, 2009 15:02:12

We need a better testing tool.
Oct 28, 2009 15:29:12

I suggest we have less narrow minded Suggestions Mods (locked, and for good reason)
Oct 28, 2009 15:31:16


This is just off the first page alone. Only one of those could be considered a sim effecting issue. Point of this list.. while it is true that mods do have to scour a large number of threads daily.. on Oct 27, people were making a concerted effort to try to engage mods in constructive dialogue on how to resolve an issue. But by Oct 28, it's basically off the radar. Again, the user base was instructed to come up with viable suggestions to resolve the problem., not just whine about it and they attempted to comply.
The thread has basically been untouched for 15 hours, meanwhile the user base is still trying to come up with alternate ways to address the problem.

Basically... Pee Wee passing is already off the radar. 15 hours is ample time to visit other threads, and revisit a topic that garnered a lot of attention just 1 day ago, and give at least some feedback.

There are other threads unrelated to this that actually received positive feedback from mods, and went no where as well.

Immediate Concern:
It is extremely easy for any idea, both good or bad, to basically be "abandoned" (for lack of a better term) due to the influx of new posts, giving the impression that the idea no longer garners merit or attention, leaving the person who suggested the idea basically flapping in the wind waiting for a response. I would imagine this negatively contributes to the morale or the person who made the idea, as well as those who supported it.

Larger concern:
The current process of going from suggestion, to action is a very "loose process" with very little definition.

Example, Robbnva posts a suggestion on Oct 15, 2009 11:00:00. On Oct 27, 2009 22:42:35 there was written confirmation that it was added to the list of things to bring to Bort's attention. That's twelve days rob had to bump his own thread before getting acknowledgement other than "+1" or something similar. And that's when an idea has almost exclusively positive support. (no update i saw contained any info on when implementation could be expected)

there's another thread from Mar 14, 2009 21:08:04. By Oct 28, 2009 11:57:28 the OP claims the idea has "died". It's in the "Epic Suggestions" forum, but has been largely going in circles for seven months

Another one from Sep 29, 2009 19:11:13. Oct 9, 2009 03:50:45 (just over a week later) mod states "i brought the bort tbh". there is No updates on the status of the idea and it's currently Oct 28. Over 2 weeks later.

One more.. Aug 26, 2009 15:17:20. By Oct 28, 2009 09:15:56 this discussion is basically dead. No resolution.

Point is.. there is no clear process. No clarity on what makes it to "the list" and what doesn't. there is very little follow through on ideas make it to this list, even ones that get a "favorable" response from mods. If ideas that make it to Epic Suggestions are left floating around for 8 months... some get pushed through in 2 weeks.. some are just left to pasture to die on their own, there is no definite time line on any of them. And that's the ideas that rose above the rest for special consideration.

So when you get told "make a constructive suggestion" to resolve something that you think is an issue.. if you look at the current process in place... it seems more likely that your idea will a) be shouted down b) you'll be ridiculed for even trying & c) your idea, even with positive support, will simply be moved to an Epic suggestions nursing home to live out it's final days. the previous examples were pull from the 4 most recently posted threads in epic suggestions as of roughly Oct 28, 7:30pm EST.

Then there is "project Bort..."
last update from "Project Bort" thread in suggestions was Sep 15, 2009 09:51:15. In the OTHER project Bort thread (Why is there even two threads for it?) after pointing to the OTHER Project bort for updates on Aug 28, an update (which btw, effectively nullifies the previous "for updates go here post") was posted on Oct 26, 2009 22:18:48
ReportLink
NOTE: This is still alive. Bort's been taking a breather as of late, but is back and has promised us he'll get back to us on the unresolved ideas soon.


So between Sept 15 (the last posted response of Bort responsing to anything Project Bort related) through Oct 26 the only substantive update was "He's been taking a breather. That's almost a month of nothing before getting an update of "nothing's been done".

The suggestion process is put on a pedastool, but the actual process is all but ineffective. The organization is unclear. there are no defined goals or metrics. No measurement of performance. When things don't get followed up on, no one has to answer as to why, and as a result, no honest way to give people an idea of what they can expect from submitting a suggestion. There is no follow up on things that "fall through the cracks" or even a means to identify "the cracks". Things just fall through.

That assessment is made without bias to any particular idea, but a general review of the factual and visible evidence using data contributed by those who have an active role in that process. Whether you like the mods, dislike them, if they are good people, you know them well, been on teams with them, if there are extenuating circumstances to explain everything or whatever, the timestamps are fact.



I'd make suggestions on how to improve the suggestions process.. but i've seen the treatment suggestions get.

If you disagree, with my assessment.. wonderful, i hope you enjoy your time being an active and positive part of the suggestions process and wish you the best in improving GLB.

As i've stated before, I'm aware that no one of influence values my opinions. However, I somehow found myself in the middle of this whole "Pee Wee" issue, and decided to evaluate the odds of success in continuing to invest time into this effort, and the information above is what i found. So while I hope that you guys manage to effect some real change. I'm bowing out. I don't have time or patience to invest 2 weeks to 8 months
into a cause that can be dropped on a whim, and no one will have to tell me why.

Sorry man, I just can't read that much text at once without some pictures or at least a boobie avatar.

I read it all and I agree.

I was active on that thread all day the 27th.

I was surprised how quickly it died on the 28th even with a bump.

Originally posted by climberpete
I read it all and I agree.

I was active on that thread all day the 27th.

I was surprised how quickly it died on the 28th even with a bump.



can you give us bullets?

Bullets? You would have the same problem the British had on the march from Lexington to Concord. No body to shoot at, and nobody to surrender to, yet harassed the whole way by farmers with muskets.

Originally posted by shadowmane
Bullets? You would have the same problem the British had on the march from Lexington to Concord. No body to shoot at, and nobody to surrender to, yet harassed the whole way by farmers with muskets.

wow that was an awesome comment right thar

Thats a lot to write to say that you just find the whole process lacking any of your thought or concentration to worry about something just getting buried and no one in upper support really caring about it now or even later.

I still found it titillating and very informative to read your thought process and view.Do you work in school,writing or a student to always have so much thought of a subject and structure in how you express yourself..

Good Read

ok I read it and yeah I agree that the suggestion mods need a better system

I posted something a few days ago about tilting at windmills and how I wasn't gonna do it anymore. Unfortunately, then I got pissed and started tilting again. Sanderval is right.

Originally posted by MV Thunder
Thats a lot to write
Yes. But unlike 98% of the internet, i don't like to post opinions without stating why. Also, its a lot harder to refute hard fact than opinion. You can counter fact with opinion, but generally that says more about the person trying to make the argument, then the argument they are going against. I get that some people simply won't read it... but i never understood the desire to post that they didn't read it. That's like making a post card to tell someone you didn't read the letter they sent you.

Originally posted by MV Thunder
Do you work in school,writing or a student to always have so much thought of a subject
No. that's just my overly elaborate thought process put into text.

But while it began being about the Pee Wee passing thread, it seems to happen to almost every suggestion. Good OR bad. Pee Wee passing is just a recent example. It was originally just going to end at the listing of threads mods gave more attention. The extra length came when i went to find examples of other ideas that died in similar fashion. Also to prove that it's systematic.. not just a one time deal. The games not even 2 years old and there's an epic suggestion thread that's lingered for 8 months. That thread is older a lot of the games features.

That said.. it's not like no one knows the system isn't functional. It's just like many other things in the game.. it would take a lot of work to fix. It's easier to say "we'll fix it later", later becomes 2 weeks... 1 month.. 3 months.. 6 months... "well let's just leave it as is for now", then it gathers cobwebs in the corner. It's also an easy way to derail people who complain too excessively.

Complaint thread starts
Mod Says "this isn't constructive, make a constructive suggestion if you wish to discuss this further"
Suggestion thread starts
Allow forum trolls and instigators to have their way with the thread..
Thread goes off topic
Suggestion thread dies

Congratulations.. you just got rid of an annoying thorn in your side, the trolls do the dirty work, and the problem (if their is one) doesn't have to be addressed.

So what we have then is a huge amount of redirection and a dead end with lost customers and upper management not having to be directly responsible to answer question still. Sort off :

Abbott: Well Costello, I'm going to New York with you. You know Bucky Harris, the Yankee's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team.

Costello: Look Abbott, if you're the coach, you must know all the players.

Abbott: I certainly do.

Costello: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.

Abbott: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names.

Costello: You mean funny names?

Abbott: Strange names, pet names...like Dizzy Dean...

Costello: His brother Daffy.

Abbott: Daffy Dean...

Costello: And their French cousin.

Abbott: French?

Costello: Goofè.

Abbott: Goofè Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...

Costello: That's what I want to find out.

Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.

Costello: Are you the manager?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: You gonna be the coach too?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?

Abbott: Well I should.

Costello: Well then who's on first?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: I mean the fellow's name.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy on first.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The first baseman.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy playing...

Abbott: Who is on first!

Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's who?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?

Abbott: Certainly.

Costello: Who's playing first?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?

Abbott: Every dollar of it.

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy that gets...

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: Who gets the money...

Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.

Costello: Whose wife?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Abbott: What's wrong with that?

Costello: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: How does he sign...

Abbott: That's how he signs it.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.

Abbott: No. What is on second base.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: One base at a time!

Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.

Costello: I'm not changing nobody!

Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.

Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: Ok.

Abbott: All right.

PAUSE

Costello: What's the guy's name on first base?

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third, we're not talking about him.

Costello: Now how did I get on third base?

Abbott: Why you mentioned his name.

Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?

Abbott: No. Who's playing first.

Costello: What's on first?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third.

Costello: There I go, back on third again!

PAUSE

Costello: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it.

Abbott: All right, what do you want to know?

Costello: Now who's playing third base?

Abbott: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base?

Costello: What am I putting on third.

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: You don't want who on second?

Abbott: Who is on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together:Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta outfield?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: I just thought I'd ask you.

Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya.

Costello: Then tell me who's playing left field.

Abbott: Who's playing first.

Costello: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field?

Abbott: No, What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first!

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: Because!

Abbott: Oh, he's centerfield.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The pitcher's name?

Abbott: Tomorrow.

Costello: You don't want to tell me today?

Abbott: I'm telling you now.

Costello: Then go ahead.

Abbott: Tomorrow!

Costello: What time?

Abbott: What time what?

Costello: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching?

Abbott: Now listen. Who is not pitching.

Costello: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: Gotta a catcher?

Abbott: Certainly.

Costello: The catcher's name?

Abbott: Today.

Costello: Today, and tomorrow's pitching.

Abbott: Now you've got it.

Costello: All we got is a couple of days on the team.

PAUSE

Costello: You know I'm a catcher too.

Abbott: So they tell me.

Costello: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?

Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right.

Costello: I don't even know what I'm talking about!

PAUSE

Abbott: That's all you have to do.

Costello: Is to throw the ball to first base.

Abbott: Yes!

Costello: Now who's got it?

Abbott: Naturally.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Naturally?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.

Abbott: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who.

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's different.

Costello: That's what I said.

Abbott: You're not saying it...

Costello: I throw the ball to Naturally.

Abbott: You throw it to Who.

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's what I said!

Abbott: You ask me.

Costello: I throw the ball to who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Now you ask me.

Abbott: You throw the ball to Who?

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don't Know. I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know! He's on third and I don't give a darn!

Abbott: What?

Costello: I said I don't give a darn!

Abbott: Oh, that's our shortstop.

Familiar with the routine (which is still a classic but doesn't work well in print) but i'm not sure if you were just trying to be funny, or mock the length of the OP.

No its hard to get it when in print but you know somewhat the direction I was headed.It was a joke not any form of mocking.