Warrior General Games

I've always heard you don't discuss these things, but I think we have a smarter group here (mods included )

We did Politics 3 times I think before a thread didn't get locked, Religion is for another day or is it, today I want to talk unions and the auto bail out.


I have mixed feelings on this but for the most part I am aginst the bailout.
Your business model was flawed, close the doors. On the other hand the UAW has asked and gotten a crippling amount of money, both in gross pay and the backend payroll (ins, taxes, etc). Now I know the white collar employess get paid more then they deserve to. White collar gets paid more, it makes sense that they would want to keep the purportions the same.

One thing I don't understand is why its the UAW in Detroit specifically that seems to have the problem. The Fort Wayne GM plant doesn't have any problems with the local UAW, and I don't hear about plants in southern Indiana or elsewhere threatning to strike.

Is the Detroit chapter ruining it for all the other chapters?


discuss

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

-Thomas Jefferson

That is all.

I personally do not believe government should have any role in bailing out any business, white or blue collar. The taxpayers should not have to carry the burden of greed and/or failed business practices(easily a trillion dollars before they are done). Now that they have stepped in and just threw money at the perceived problem with little or no accountability, do you really think things will change for the better or more to the point, at all? Do you really think it won't be business as usual behind the scenes? The payoffs, bonuses and the like? Where will it end? Who is next? The trucking & shipping companies, the airlines, or maybe railroad companies? They will all want their piece of the pie, how do save some and not others? It's become the American way to complain and do nothing constructive about anything and expect the government to take care of it. This is basically welfare for the rich, get your money, don't do anything for it and when you've burned through it on jewelry(perks, trips, bonuses,etc.)you just need to reach out for the next check. Meanwhile it is still us in the lower middle class who pay for all this bullshit.

I know this is a bit off topic but it goes with grey

I listen to my mom, and shes smart.

She says that the 2 major turning points in US Govt were the Civil War and women's suffrage.

1. The civil war basically killed the states ability to self govern.

2. When they passed suffrage the government started turning into a mother for its citizens not a guard against foreign powers.

How does it tie in with grey? Easy you think Montana gives a damn what happens in Maine? No, but the Federal Govt takes there money and feeds it to Maine. Thats an example not a fact.

And I do have a personnal interent in this, I didn't get a bailout!

I know how to get rid of all the people that are underpaid, get rid of the unions.

I lost my job years ago because of the failing auto industry.

A couple of things to keep in mind here. First, the "bail out" of the mortgage industry really isn't a bailout per say. The govt. bought the loans at huge discounted rates so the financial institutions could show less of a loss on the bottom line at the end of the year. The US govt. in turn, will re-negotiate with some/many of those loans to help keep the owners in the house, then eventually turn around and sell the loans back to the market for a profit. In the short term, it hurts the US taxpayer, yes. In the long term, it also helps the tax payer.

Regarding the auto industry, keep in mind that US automakers employ something like 10% of the US population in some manner, via direct, through dealerships, repair shops, etc. Allowing the US automakers to fold would cause immediate public panic and would, literally devastate the economy. More importantly than all of that though, is that it's an issue of national security. Think about it. If those plants EVER shut down AND we ended up in another world war (i.e. WWI and WWII), this country would have to retool itself from a free market vehicle production plant into a military production facility in a hurry. Currently, iirc, they are required to keep on fine with the govt. with up to date documents on how it would retool to manufacture current X type of military vehicles (tanks, humV's, jeeps, etc.) at X rate per day/week/month.

The auto bail out is a bailout in it's truest sense. The issue will be if the govt. is willing to force caps on executive golden parachutes and perks, forced re-organization, union labor re-negotiation (which is the crux of the problem), and finally producing vehicles with 40/50/60+ mpg. They do have the technology to do it NOW (look at cars in England and Europe), but the US auto industry - chooses - not to.

Originally posted by norsemanvike
A couple of things to keep in mind here. First, the "bail out" of the mortgage industry really isn't a bailout per say. The govt. bought the loans at huge discounted rates so the financial institutions could show less of a loss on the bottom line at the end of the year. The US govt. in turn, will re-negotiate with some/many of those loans to help keep the owners in the house, then eventually turn around and sell the loans back to the market for a profit. In the short term, it hurts the US taxpayer, yes. In the long term, it also helps the tax payer.

Regarding the auto industry, keep in mind that US automakers employ something like 10% of the US population in some manner, via direct, through dealerships, repair shops, etc. Allowing the US automakers to fold would cause immediate public panic and would, literally devastate the economy. More importantly than all of that though, is that it's an issue of national security. Think about it. If those plants EVER shut down AND we ended up in another world war (i.e. WWI and WWII), this country would have to retool itself from a free market vehicle production plant into a military production facility in a hurry. Currently, iirc, they are required to keep on fine with the govt. with up to date documents on how it would retool to manufacture current X type of military vehicles (tanks, humV's, jeeps, etc.) at X rate per day/week/month.

The auto bail out is a bailout in it's truest sense. The issue will be if the govt. is willing to force caps on executive golden parachutes and perks, forced re-organization, union labor re-negotiation (which is the crux of the problem), and finally producing vehicles with 40/50/60+ mpg. They do have the technology to do it NOW (look at cars in England and Europe), but the US auto industry - chooses - not to.

(Someone is a McCain/Palin supporter)

Originally posted by Duncan345


(Someone is a McCain/Palin supporter)



Shhhhh...

Originally posted by norsemanvike
Originally posted by Duncan345



(Someone is a McCain/Palin supporter)



Shhhhh...

It's ok, I am from Mississippi so I had to hide my support for Obama.

There is less money in high milage cars.

Allowing the "Big 3" to fall wouldn't be the end of US automakers, if anything it will let new competitive American companies to form.
Parkard killed by GM
AMC killed by the UAW

Opening the market to new better ran business would be great in the long term.

Closing the doors to a car plant doesn't make it just disappear, all the equipment is still there ready to be used.

The Bank bail out was a fucking waste of money. It did nothing to free up consumer credit to allow people to buy. It shored up banks books so they can weather the storm and not do a damn thing to help it pass!

Exactly...it would force them to reorganize how they do business. The unions have outlived their usefulness and are to the point that the only ones making real money are the guys running them and the unions themselves. There needs to be a correction. If we lose one, oh well. It would make the others stronger and more competitive. As far as banks and financial companies being able to show less debt and/or losses, may be the end result as was stated. All that accomplishes is allowing the companies to continue on the same road, basically falsifying the books to look better than they really are and they pay out dividends to their shareholders at our expense. Welfare for the rich and that's the next check. Do any of you really think these big boys are going to lose anything? Smoke and mirrors my friends, in the end the only people with nothing will be those of us who started out that way and have to work hard for a dime.

I'm waiting for my redistribution of wealth check!

Duncan when is that going to get in the mail?

I need it to come soon or I might have to get a real job!