Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TesT
Originally posted by Spike25

Cool, I might put some on speed, but I was going to put all my equipment on agility, just to see if that would make a difference. What do you think?

I've seen some RBs that have really high agility compared to their speed and they seem to have a lunging sort of motion. It's like the want to go fast, but since their speed is so low they just have that quick burst and nothing else.

I'm keeping my speed just a few points above agility.

Currently with equipment they're 62/57

I see, thanks for the info! That's pretty much made up my mind there then. I'll split my equipment evenly between speed and agility and hopefully have success with that.

Have you thought about what SAs you're going to be working on once you've got the speed/agility sorted out? I was thinking of maxing out a combination of Quick Cut and Juke, followed by Spin when it gets to that. What SAs you going for?

Originally posted by Spike25
Originally posted by TesT

Originally posted by Spike25


Cool, I might put some on speed, but I was going to put all my equipment on agility, just to see if that would make a difference. What do you think?

I've seen some RBs that have really high agility compared to their speed and they seem to have a lunging sort of motion. It's like the want to go fast, but since their speed is so low they just have that quick burst and nothing else.

I'm keeping my speed just a few points above agility.

Currently with equipment they're 62/57

I see, thanks for the info! That's pretty much made up my mind there then. I'll split my equipment evenly between speed and agility and hopefully have success with that.

Have you thought about what SAs you're going to be working on once you've got the speed/agility sorted out? I was thinking of maxing out a combination of Quick Cut and Juke, followed by Spin when it gets to that. What SAs you going for?

I won't be adding any points until late in S5 to the specials if then. Like I said, my plans are to just keep firing points into speed and agility....even when it costs 3 for 1.

But when I do goto the specials with points, my plan is to work on Quick Cut and First Step. I'll put just enough points into Head Fake as I need to increase First Step. I'm not 100% sold on the Juke special being all that great and I think you'll need VERY HIGH agility to get the spin to work.

I think it's a very wise idea to hold off on SAs for a season or two. Tough to do, though

As far as First Step goes, unless you're a Speed back, it's fairly useless. The first rule of thumb is that the SAs that are constant are FAR more powerful than those that trigger. Any SA that is active all the time will greatly trump one that must trigger or be activated. Basically, 100% is much greater than 25, 50 or 75%.

Secondly, what benefit does First Step give you as a non-Speed back? It can only activate on the hand off, as that's the only time you're at a dead stop. What will a boost to acceleration at that point give you? Your blockers need time to get into position, and I have seen no benefit to getting to the outside faster as a non-Speed back.

As far as Speed vs. Agility, I'd go Agility. There are a few reasons, but this post is long enough. If you're going to be a true Elusive back, then 50-55 Speed is plenty until you're higher level.

We're talking about a speed/elusive back here so I dont know why you're speaking otherwise.

You're telling me First Step wouldn't have helped greatly on this play? I beg to differ. The end result might be the same, but personally I dont like seeing my HB in the backfield for 30 seconds.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=116571&pbp_id=2570907

And that's 62/57 speed/agility. For a speed back, 62/57 is very slow right now. Unless you're willing to go beyond what most people consider high speed, you're not making anything special. I've seen power backs with 60 speed and 60 agility.

My guy will have 70+/70+ at level 21 and after S5 he'll have closer to 80/80.

Originally posted by TesT
I won't be adding any points until late in S5 to the specials if then. Like I said, my plans are to just keep firing points into speed and agility....even when it costs 3 for 1.

But when I do goto the specials with points, my plan is to work on Quick Cut and First Step. I'll put just enough points into Head Fake as I need to increase First Step. I'm not 100% sold on the Juke special being all that great and I think you'll need VERY HIGH agility to get the spin to work.

I won't be putting anything into SAs till the start of season 6, possibly later, just wondering what direction you are going to in regard to the SAs.

I'm going to get Quick Cut to about 6 (without custom) pretty quickly, because I've heard that it helps in SAs like Juke and Spin as well. I think First Step is a useful ability, as it will give you a better start off the line and it will help you get back up to speed if you have to stop completely (though I can't imagine when that might happen :S). Juke is basically a much better version of Head Fake (it even suggests that in its description) and I think combined with a high Quick Cut, you could seriosuly do some damage with it. Spin: Well I'm aiming for 85ish agility by the time I hit Season 7, so why not capitalise on it?

Originally posted by Spike25
Originally posted by TesT

I won't be adding any points until late in S5 to the specials if then. Like I said, my plans are to just keep firing points into speed and agility....even when it costs 3 for 1.

But when I do goto the specials with points, my plan is to work on Quick Cut and First Step. I'll put just enough points into Head Fake as I need to increase First Step. I'm not 100% sold on the Juke special being all that great and I think you'll need VERY HIGH agility to get the spin to work.

I won't be putting anything into SAs till the start of season 6, possibly later, just wondering what direction you are going to in regard to the SAs.

I'm going to get Quick Cut to about 6 (without custom) pretty quickly, because I've heard that it helps in SAs like Juke and Spin as well. I think First Step is a useful ability, as it will give you a better start off the line and it will help you get back up to speed if you have to stop completely (though I can't imagine when that might happen :S). Juke is basically a much better version of Head Fake (it even suggests that in its description) and I think combined with a high Quick Cut, you could seriosuly do some damage with it. Spin: Well I'm aiming for 90 agility by the time I hit Season 7, so why not capitalise on it?

Well to be honest I'm so far away from adding points to the specials I really can't tell you exactly how I'll end up doing it. At best they'll be increased at the end of S5 which will be the players 3rd season. By then, I think he'll be in the level 27-28 range.

I know I'll increase Quick Cut and I know I'll be increasing First Step. How far will I go with first step? Not sure...alot will depend on results from this season. I'm on teams with HBs that have high juke and head fake and while there are some fantastic runs, there also is alot left to desire considering the amount of points invested to reach the totals they have.

What I havent seen is a player with really high Quick cut and really high first step. Making the same player everyone else does isn't that fun which is why I'm trying something different. It might fail which is fine. But as of this moment he's doing pretty well.

Originally posted by TesT
Originally posted by Spike25

Originally posted by TesT


I won't be adding any points until late in S5 to the specials if then. Like I said, my plans are to just keep firing points into speed and agility....even when it costs 3 for 1.

But when I do goto the specials with points, my plan is to work on Quick Cut and First Step. I'll put just enough points into Head Fake as I need to increase First Step. I'm not 100% sold on the Juke special being all that great and I think you'll need VERY HIGH agility to get the spin to work.

I won't be putting anything into SAs till the start of season 6, possibly later, just wondering what direction you are going to in regard to the SAs.

I'm going to get Quick Cut to about 6 (without custom) pretty quickly, because I've heard that it helps in SAs like Juke and Spin as well. I think First Step is a useful ability, as it will give you a better start off the line and it will help you get back up to speed if you have to stop completely (though I can't imagine when that might happen :S). Juke is basically a much better version of Head Fake (it even suggests that in its description) and I think combined with a high Quick Cut, you could seriosuly do some damage with it. Spin: Well I'm aiming for 90 agility by the time I hit Season 7, so why not capitalise on it?

Well to be honest I'm so far away from adding points to the specials I really can't tell you exactly how I'll end up doing it. At best they'll be increased at the end of S5 which will be the players 3rd season. By then, I think he'll be in the level 27-28 range.

I know I'll increase Quick Cut and I know I'll be increasing First Step. How far will I go with first step? Not sure...alot will depend on results from this season. I'm on teams with HBs that have high juke and head fake and while there are some fantastic runs, there also is alot left to desire considering the amount of points invested to reach the totals they have.

What I havent seen is a player with really high Quick cut and really high first step. Making the same player everyone else does isn't that fun which is why I'm trying something different. It might fail which is fine. But as of this moment he's doing pretty well.


my HB has High quick cut and First Step is on the rise

Thats y i needed Headfake to get to 8
so i could get 1st step to 10

Originally posted by TesT
We're talking about a speed/elusive back here so I dont know why you're speaking otherwise.

You're telling me First Step wouldn't have helped greatly on this play? I beg to differ. The end result might be the same, but personally I dont like seeing my HB in the backfield for 30 seconds.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=116571&pbp_id=2570907

First off, I don't know why you're getting defensive, because I'm not attacking you or your build. In fact, I think your plan is an excellent one, and immediately puts you ahead of most players out there, as many of them don't plan ahead. Especially RBs.

Secondly, that's not a very good play to prove the effectiveness of First Step. Your RB CLEARLY turns upfield, thinks better of it, then bounces it outside. The only thing First Step might have done is to prevent your RB from having the option of bouncing it outside because he was already too far upfield. Plus, I don't know how much better you want your RB to perform, considering he scored a TD

Also, you can't really look at a play and say, "First Step would have..." because that's assuming First Step would have activated, which is a big if. I have a player with a First Step of 9 with CE. I'd guesstimate it activates 50% of the time... at most. Are you willing to invest that many SPs into an SA that will activate less than 50% of the time? Whose importance/impact is questionable?

Lastly, you're not a speed back. A speed back is one whose Speed far outweighs his Agility, usually with at least a 15 point gap between the two. Those are the ones who come here and wonder why their RB is doing so poorly or wondering why their Elusive SAs aren't working very well.

first step doesnt activate... zzz

Originally posted by cripler
first step doesnt activate... zzz

Really?

Hmm... then why does it say:

"Increases the chance of the skill working, and the boost to acceleration."

The fact that it has a chance to work clearly indicates that it also has a chance not to work. Therefore, it's activated, or triggered.

Originally posted by j10er
Originally posted by cripler

first step doesnt activate... zzz

Really?

Hmm... then why does it say:

"Increases the chance of the skill working, and the boost to acceleration."

The fact that it has a chance to work clearly indicates that it also has a chance not to work. Therefore, it's activated, or triggered.


I think both Head Fake and Juke both say "increases the chance the defender will be fooled", thus there's a chance he won't be fooled at all...right? So is it safe to say those work depending on your opponent. So you rather have specials that work based on your opponents skills rather than specials that work off your own skills?

And as far as my back not being a speed back goes...If I were to move all my agility equipment to speed, I could have him 70 speed and 49 agility. You know why he's not like that? Its a shitty setup.

Your speed can be 100 but if you don't have the agility or ACCELERATION to get to that max speed, it doesnt really matter. Most speed backs should probably start off with higher agility and then work their speed up above.

My guy is a work in progress. You can't have a level 15 speed back that's effective. To make a true speed back, it's going to take 3-4 seasons. There's lots of Elusives out there. Very few of those Elusives would I consider speed backs.

Originally posted by TesT
Originally posted by j10er

Originally posted by cripler


first step doesnt activate... zzz

Really?

Hmm... then why does it say:

"Increases the chance of the skill working, and the boost to acceleration."

The fact that it has a chance to work clearly indicates that it also has a chance not to work. Therefore, it's activated, or triggered.


I think both Head Fake and Juke both say "increases the chance the defender will be fooled", thus there's a chance he won't be fooled at all...right? So is it safe to say those work depending on your opponent. So you rather have specials that work based on your opponents skills rather than specials that work off your own skills?

And as far as my back not being a speed back goes...If I were to move all my agility equipment to speed, I could have him 70 speed and 49 agility. You know why he's not like that? Its a shitty setup.

Your speed can be 100 but if you don't have the agility or ACCELERATION to get to that max speed, it doesnt really matter. Most speed backs should probably start off with higher agility and then work their speed up above.

My guy is a work in progress. You can't have a level 15 speed back that's effective. To make a true speed back, it's going to take 3-4 seasons. There's lots of Elusives out there. Very few of those Elusives would I consider speed backs.



Why do I feel like you're arguing with me when I completely agree with you???

I don't get what I said that you misinterpreted - honestly. Seriously, I'm missing something here...

I've posted a number of times in this forum that there is a huge difference between a speed back and an elusive back, and that people often confuse the two. And I've also argued that an elusive back is much, much more effective than a speed back. I've even said, in this thread, that you are NOT a speed back because you have a balance between the two attributes. I've even said I LIKE your plan. Geez... you compliment a guy and he bites your head off.

Anyway, for Head Fake and Juke, they fire off on almost every run, if not every run. They are more effective on low agility/vision defenders, but they work on all defenders. The higher the ability, the higher the chance of it working. And, as it indicates, they're both tied to agility. So, since the chance of it working is based off the level of your SA and your agility, and it fires on every play, then it is based off of your abilities and it is consistently used.

If you want First Step, go for it. It's your guy. The OP asked for advice and I gave it, along with my reasoning. Why you got so insulted is beyond me...

either way 1st step is supposed to work a good amount of the time >.< according to other posters

Wow, I honestly didn't realise how much of a discussion this would trigger, but it sure is a good one. j10, I wouldn't say you two are argueing, just having a 'heated discussion'.

Anyway, I am grateful to both of you for showing your views on my plan and discussing the SAs in such depth. Personally, I am in favour of the Quick Cut/Juke set up, because I really do just feel like Juke is a bigger, better version of Head Fake. Obviously, I'm going to have to increase Head Fake to get the other SAs high (when I start on them), so I might consider putting a few more points in there as well, if I get the chance.