Warrior General Games

Anyone have an idea what the out of position penalties are? I’ve been happy throwing rFB into TE depth. I understand that a running FB also can act as a pHB without much penalty (is there one). What about Power WR as receiving BTE?

OOPPs have always been a black box on purpose. No one knows.

They existed before archetypes, so it doesn't matter what archetype you pick.

The only advice Bort ever gave is that they are more logical than not.

Like an OT at CB would max out the penalty. A FS at CB would be very small.

You'd have to try it. You'd have to be the judge if your specific WR would be better than your rTE.

Remember all the factors. Height Weight SAs and VAs plus the ALG difference now.

That makes all the sense in the world, thank you. The mystery is fun too

The only direct quote from Bort I ever saw was that HB -> QB OoPP was 50%. Someone in Q&A asked why their HB looked like garbage running QB runs.

Lone Star Mercs did a comprehensive list of them back around S25-30ish, and I went nuts trying to find it, I could've sworn he had posted it to the Iron Man forums, but I couldn't manage to dig it up there. Might be lost to the sands of time now.

Pretty sure the lowest OoPP on the list was FB <-> TE though. FB -> HB is definitely higher.

Originally posted by Gambler75
The only direct quote from Bort I ever saw was that HB -> QB OoPP was 50%. Someone in Q&A asked why their HB looked like garbage running QB runs.

Lone Star Mercs did a comprehensive list of them back around S25-30ish, and I went nuts trying to find it, I could've sworn he had posted it to the Iron Man forums, but I couldn't manage to dig it up there. Might be lost to the sands of time now.

Pretty sure the lowest OoPP on the list was FB <-> TE though. FB -> HB is definitely higher.

yea, I recall this one Pretty sure the lowest OoPP on the list was FB <-> TE though. FB -> HB is definitely higher.

Originally posted by Gambler75
The only direct quote from Bort I ever saw was that HB -> QB OoPP was 50%. Someone in Q&A asked why their HB looked like garbage running QB runs.

Lone Star Mercs did a comprehensive list of them back around S25-30ish, and I went nuts trying to find it, I could've sworn he had posted it to the Iron Man forums, but I couldn't manage to dig it up there. Might be lost to the sands of time now.

Pretty sure the lowest OoPP on the list was FB <-> TE though. FB -> HB is definitely higher.

This isn't true. We know the SPD attribute is linear (100 spd dot runs twice as fast as a 50 spd dot)

For this retired 172 HB I put at QB sometimes for the lolz and to fuck with Pwned's DAI having a bad order of operations for tagging.

37.17 max speed at QB (99 energy to start play)
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=21844&pbp_id=621610

42.72 max speed at HB (100 energy)
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=21802&pbp_id=286836
42.72 max speed at HB (98 energy)
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=21802&pbp_id=287080
43.01 max speed at HB (100 energy)

So average HB top speed is 42.81. The above data implies the OOP of a HB at QB is about 13%, making a 172 spd HB run like a 149 spd QB (not including VA bonuses or other crap in anythng).

When they say Oh Right There, don't change a thing, stay in position.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
This isn't true.

Link: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3790051

The actual Q&A where Bort said the penalty, was likely in 2009 given the accumulation thread there is early 2010 ... so the HB -> QB OoP penalty was likely reduced later, but you've made a couple wrong assumptions yourself in those calculations to end up at only 13%.

1) Catch22 twice posted to the Q&A that OoP penalty ONLY hits base attributes. (This is why blkFB @ WR was effective for all those Mauler teams, but blkTE @ WR looks like absolute dog shit. The FB can actually get his hands on someone to block bc of the undiminished gear, while the TE looks like a frozen slug going uphill as defenders fly past them, if it's a 'normal' build blkTE with all gear in Str.)

So assuming 58 points of gear, that's enough to shift that from 13 -> 20% or so for the ACTUAL penalty to the base stats ...

2) Speed scout absolutely doesn't produce linear results, it's skewed by a non-trivial amount as you get to higher speeds, you'd get a lot better results comparing slower, lower level dots, than hyper speed extreme builds.

80 Spd OL on kickoff return to start game (100en): Checking through several, consistently 24.5 Spd.

170/80 = 2.125 factor. 24.5 x 2.215 = 52.06 expected speed scout result if it's indeed linear.

So 170 KR on same kickoff ret (100en), should be 52? Comes up as max 43.4 Spd consistently. (Likely getting that extra .7 over your example from Special Teamer VA, despite the 2 slower actual Spd. Which should technically be more, since it's +15% speed.) Regardless, it's nowhere near the 52 expected if Speed Scout was giving linear results.

TL;DR - My guess between the numbers you posted, taking into account the gear not being penalized and speed scout getting quite unreliable at the TOP end of the scale? Bort probably chopped the penalty in half at some point after 2010, and the actual penalty is likely sitting at 25%.

If I get *really, REALLY* bored, I might test it out with some LOW level dots, removing their gear for a CPU game. Shouldn't be biased by VAs that way, or gear, or speed scout struggling with hyper speeds.

Though I'm much more interested in other positions as far as OoPP goes, never was a fan of non-QB at QB. Too easy to catch with the lack of passer tag, and should end up running into a violently stacked D. (Your example against the old KC squad obviously flies in the face of that, but IIRC they had nothing but covLBs, makes it hard against a goal line...)