Warrior General Games

Interesting thread

It was before you start spamming.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Ok. So I get it now but wanted to let you know that I already tried several alternate Returner types. actually thinking such as you did... trying to get advantages here and there. The best I was able to come up with was a max weight PHB. Why that instead of heavier TE? SA's. PHB already comes with necessary SA's... which cost extra for TE. Weight does help but you'll never be fast enough to outrun KO coverage dots so you will NEED, badly, all the tricks to keep him upright and running. Jump is one. Hurdle is another. Why? Because most of your tackles will come from the behind. Balance is also good (when getting gang tackled). Also make him max short (think bowling ball). Agility helps with avoid tackle. Good luck!

Most of that is spot on. However, Hurdle doesn't work from behind. No tackle breaking SA works from directly behind. Hurdle breaks diving tackles but mostly from head on tackles.

Without good forward momentum, PT isn't going to fire as much. Velocity is mass times speed. I don't think making a player as fat as he wants to is going to help them do PT as much as the OP thinks it will.

I've seen 'hurdle' work when a tackle comes from, what GLB considers, "the side". On the replay it looks like a tackle from behind but I suspect GLB considers any angle not directly from behind to be a 'side tackle attempt'. (Note I am only considering 'diving style tackles anyways because well over 75% of all tackle attempts, on a returner... from not in front, are diving style tackles. At least most tackle attempts I've seen. It's why I love Jump on my returners. I should've said that in my previous post. Sorry.)

If its from the side and kind of behind the SAs can still work, but if it is really, really from behind, none of them work. I always thought Hurdle had one of the more restricted arcs of the SAs. Spin is the one I usually see fire if the runner is actually being chased from behind but there is still at least a 15* angle or so, sometimes Power Through or Stiff Arm. I never have seen Hurdle fire from less than a 30* angle from behind. Stiff arm, I've never seen it fire against a head on tackle before. That's why I don't get that. One time I got Hurdle for a player who was always running free down the sidelines thinking he'd use it to hurdle the players chasing after and trying diving tackles. It didn't work, not one time. The player would break tackles with spin constantly, but never once did he hurdle a player chasing from behind like I thought he would. Not even close. That's why I don't bother much with hurdle these days. It seems to me to be strictly another straight forward power tackle breaking SA like Power Thru or LTS that only works on diving tackles. Only power runners can use it- it works for bruiser HBs but it doesn't seem like a KR/PR thing. I mean, you would think it would, but that doesn't seem to be at all how it works

What I'm saying, for a strength-first player all the tackle breaking SAs work well. Power Thru is the best IMO but the rest all are good too and Hurdle can be very deadly for a bruiser back. The only tackle breaking SA that really works well for a player who is not strength-first is Spin. As far as I've seen to work consistently, that is the case. The other SAs will work occasionally for a speed-first player, but not enough IMO to be worth the cost which I'd use on fakes and other SAs instead. As you have stated, you probably want your return man to be speed first. If he's not fast enough, he can break tackles all day and still not get where he needs to go.

I guess someone could try to find that perfect spot where their return man is strong enough to use strength-based SAs but still fast enough to excel as a returner. That was like Josh Cribbs, but he still had 4.4 speed. I guess, there isn't much for a return man to get, so it'd be doable, but I see why an evasive runner is a much more common option. You start running head first into traffic on KRs, you are asking for all kinds of problems. All kinds. That's a rough path to tread and I'm not sure if the boom comes anywhere close to the bust

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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Appreciated on all the research guys! Friggin bort doesn't let me see anything with L16 dots...

KR TE it is. Lock it in!

How's the fat KR doing?