Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TJ Spikes

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046016

There could be some random math fuckery involved, that wouldn't be a new thing. It's possible that Bort decided to fudge things so that Fake% works 100% of the time, and just nerfed the crap out of the baseline fake chance so that Vision + SV is balanced.

That's why I'm saying this is a superstition. I don't believe Bort would do something much more complex on purpose. I'd rather believe it's a simple as attribute + SA VS attribute + SA



I view Bort's comment as to when the ball is being thrown - the ball is in the air and vision and SV determine how fast the defender reacts

fakes can happen right off the line of scrimmage and are usually what creates great separation for receivers - once the ball is in the air you don't see the fakes any more you have now evolved into the pass reception / interception equations where the vision / SV come in

Originally posted by TJ Spikes


Why would the defense only get Vision + Super Vision SA, ... but the offense gets Agility + Juke SA + Fake% ?



Why are you having such a hard time with this? Running a route and the Fakes that can be done doing so ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!!!

You are talking about vision and super vision being the ONLY THING THAT AFFECTS THE TICK DELAYS FROM ROUTE RUNNING! ROUTE RUNNING! ROUTE RUNNING!!! NOT FAKES!!! TWO dIFFERENT THINGS!!!

I'm glad you're finally understanding. I've seen you make this mistake forever

Originally posted by reddogrw
I view Bort's comment as to when the ball is being thrown - the ball is in the air and vision and SV determine how fast the defender reacts

fakes can happen right off the line of scrimmage and are usually what creates great separation for receivers - once the ball is in the air you don't see the fakes any more you have now evolved into the pass reception / interception equations where the vision / SV come in

Vision and SV do determine how fast the defender reacts to a thrown pass, but that is a completely different subject, also.

What Bort is talking about is when a receiver runs the route, they automatically get chances to cause delays in the guys covering them when they make breaks in the route, either through the breaks written into the route in the play design, or any additional breaks the player may make (usually with 'creative route' running on, but even players set to exact will sometimes make an extra cut in the route if the situation is right). Notice a WR makes his cut, and the CB keeps running for a second before he reacts? That is what we are talking about. No fakes involved.

None of this has a thing to do with Fake % or Avoid Fake %, or with any of the fake SAs at all for that matter. All that is a completely separate thing. This specific thing about route running that TJ keeps talking about was actually added to GLB long after fakes were introduced, in Bort's final attempt to make passing viable and realistic. It works better than most seem to realize, because I don't think they understand how it works. I wonder do they even realize what vision is doing for the WR?

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
You seem to be misunderstanding my statement.

There's a ton of quotes that say avoid fake % doesn't help DBs against all the cuts.

So I was saying that fake % might not help receivers while running routes.

It's probably good for Catch Fake. And every other Juke and Head fake after the ball is caught.

It's also possible that Bort just rigged the math, so that anti fake % doesn't work and fake % does. But that doesn't seem like it would be worth the effort





I understand exactly what you are saying. It is not correct.

You believe that Fake % and Avoid Fake % helps with cuts while carrying the ball and breaks while running a route. It does not do this, at all

Fake % and Avoid Fake % only affects these four SAs:
Head Fake, Juke, Pump Fake, Catch Fake
it affects them anytime they can be used which is when a player is carrying the ball or running a route.
That is what it does- no more, no less.

I hope you understand this; I've literally seen you make this mistake for 30 seasons now and I assume you were doing it before I came back to GLB. I'm sorry to break it to, but this is it.


To reiterate this clearly so no one is confused by misinformation

Fake % and Avoid Fake % work to affect Head Fake, Juke, Pump Fake and Catch Fake
in any situation these SAs can possibly be used, and besides that, its does absolutely nothing else

I'm done. There's more than enough information in this thread for people to make up their own minds.

Anyone that wants to believe that Fake % gear boosts a Juke that happens while running a route, like this,
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3099664&pbp_id=632201
is welcome to do so.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
I'm done. There's more than enough information in this thread for people to make up their own minds.

Anyone that wants to believe that Fake % gear boosts a Juke that happens while running a route, like this,
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3099664&pbp_id=632201
is welcome to do so.



I'm assuming those guys do not have fake % gear?

Originally posted by TheBear
I'm assuming those guys do not have fake % gear?

Are you referring to the two hhLBs who are trying to cover the rTE? It was only the LILB who got juked but neither of them most likely have the speed to possibly cover the rTE regardless. I would bet a whole lot of money, a whole, whole, whole lot of money that the hhLB has no Avoid Fake % or SV to speak of- but even if he did, his vision is probably not high enough it would make a difference and even had he not been juked he would have just been left in the dust like the LOLB was.

This guy here, TJ, he doesn't seem to understand basic things about the game. Why did he even link to that play? Its not relevant to anything. If anything it shows how badly the LILB with no Avoid Fake % got beaten by the fake. Of course Avoid Fake % works to avoid fakes during the play, what else would it do? That is why any decent CB has over 20% Avoid Fake. You thought that was to stop the rush? I can tell you exactly what Avoid Fake % does to fakes and I can tell you exactly what Super Vision does to fakes and its not the same thing- and I know this because every single CB I build I got more of those than the previous time and the difference was night and day. Avoid Fake % and SV are by far the most important skills for any coverage specialist. Otherwise you will get killed by juke and catch fake at the highest levels. I know because I've been on both sides of it. Hell, everyone knows! I don't know why I even am wasting my time joining into this ludicrous debate.

one last thing though:

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Originally posted by TJ Spikes
You seem to be misunderstanding my statement.

There's a ton of quotes that say avoid fake % doesn't help DBs against all the cuts.


Cuts and Fakes are two totally different issues. That is why you fail.

On topic

how's the build of this lvl 52 scat panning out?


CE not added yet and 1st AEQ not upgraded fully.


(Lv. 52 FB)
Ht/Wt: 5'10", 221lbs


Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 6.13
Speed: 119.3 (+24)
Agility: 89.43 (+3)
Jumping: 22.29
Stamina: 12.87
Vision: 70.43
Confidence: 19.29

Football Skills
Blocking: 17.42
Catching: 80.43
Tackling: 8
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 49.29
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Originally posted by Kegatron
On topic

how's the build of this lvl 52 scat panning out?


CE not added yet and 1st AEQ not upgraded fully.


(Lv. 52 FB)
Ht/Wt: 5'10", 221lbs


Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 6.13
Speed: 119.3 (+24)
Agility: 89.43 (+3)
Jumping: 22.29
Stamina: 12.87
Vision: 70.43
Confidence: 19.29

Football Skills
Blocking: 17.42
Catching: 80.43
Tackling: 8
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 49.29
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8


So adjusted for ALG's at the end... and since you're likely into that time when you've either switched over to Light Training for BT's... or will very soon.. here's what you're looking at in the end;

(Lv. 79 FB)
Ht/Wt: 5'10", 221lbs


Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 6.13
Speed: 119.3 (+24) +5.67 (ALG's gained) = 124.97 (plus EQ bonus)
Agility: 89.43 (+3) +5.67 (ALG's gained) = 95.1 (plus EQ bonus)
Jumping: 22.29 +2.97 (ALG's gained) = 25.26 (plus EQ bonus)
Stamina: 12.87
Vision: 70.43 +5.67 (ALG's gained) = 76.1 (plus EQ bonus)
Confidence: 19.29 +2.97 (ALG's gained) = 22.26 (plus EQ bonus)

Football Skills
Blocking: 17.42 +2.97 (ALG's gained) = 20.39 (plus EQ bonus)
Catching: 80.43 +5.67 (ALG's gained) = 86.1 (plus EQ bonus)
Tackling: 8
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 49.29 +2.97 (ALG's gained) = 52.26 (plus EQ bonus)
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Too late to change what you see above but you could've stopped training Vision earlier (or not put as many SP's into it) and gotten away with 65-70 in the end... and used that elsewhere. Assuming you put the rest of your EQ/AEQ into speed your end number for speed should be about 155.97

Hope that helps.

You can 'get away' with 70 vision but I like his better. Vision is uber-important both for getting open when running a route, and doing fakes. No receiving player can ever have too much IMO... but its so hard to get it. I say this with full disclosure that my scat FBs rarely go higher than 70 vision as well- but this is not because its useless for them, not at all.

I'm assuming this FB will have 4AEQ and ~155 speed total? Then he can bump that up to ~160 with the VA (which i don't really like to do with a FB because there are so many VAs for them to get) or if he doesn't its a bit slow for my taste, but with 95 agility he can get away with it IMO. In that case his OC is gonna want to focus more on the routes which have cuts inside or toward the sideline rather than the straight-line routes IMO, but those are the best routes anyways. Assuming that this FB is a 4 AEQ build properly distributed (with a good catch and fake % from those, IMO) and has plenty of sticky hands, quick cut and juke, and that he is going to cap jumping soon, I would definitely theoretically sign him had we not already had an MVP scat FB (whom I make actually). So I will say I like the build and though I myself do it a tad bit differently, its looks good to me.

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I didn't want to post this, because I'm sure someone will confuse what it is saying and twist it into something else and get more people confused about something which is really not that complicated. I'll post it anyways and hope that it helps people

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=5065409&page=1#47155260

Originally posted by BORT

...
3. There is a different kind of "fake" caused by a quick enough change in direction, that does not require an SA. The defender will tend to overrun his target from not reacting quickly enough, being carried on by momentum. "Avoid fake" does not help avoid this, but vision, agility, and superior vision skill do.

By different kind of fake, its a totally different thing. It has nothing to do with the Fake % or Avoid Fake %. That is caused by the players movement skills and vision, rather than being an activated ability. All it really is, is the game dynamics at work.

In pass coverage, the coverage is hit with an additional 'penalty' in those situations, which is meant to simulate the reaction time of the coverage to the receivers' cuts in a well-run route. Again this is based on vision and agility, and is not affected by Fake % and Avoid Fake %.

The only thing that Fake % and Avoid Fake % do is effect the Fake SAs- but that is A LOT. Fake SAs are one of the main methods of getting open, and Avoid Fake % a key to not being destroyed by them.