Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I'm more with the Gup on this. When talkin top quality teams and very well built dots you're likely not going to get many fringe outcomes. Forced fumbles can happen... but, overall, it's a very low % outcome. Most top returners don't fumble but 1 or 2 times in an entire season (if that)... so you're banking on a low % play to help you only a few times a season. I've always been (as a ST guy) much more interested in negating any return as my #1 thing. First stat I always check on my punters and kickers is net yardage (distance-return distance). I know pinning my opponent deep, as long as I got a good defense, is my #1 way of ensuring they don't score and gaining the advantage in field position is the #1 way I ensure we do score. Most points wins games.

Just for reference, took my top 14 cas pro competitive games and forced 5 on punts and 4 on kickoffs, so they happen more than you think.

FWIW TSW has 3 FF / TDs in WL Preseason so far so it's not like it never happens.

Originally posted by .spider.
Just for reference, took my top 14 cas pro competitive games and forced 5 on punts and 4 on kickoffs, so they happen more than you think.
Yeah, I think Guppy was concerned more with forcing 60+ yd. fair catches. A side effect is that IF your 2 SEs get there first, if one causes a FF, the other is well positioned to snatch it up and probably score.

Originally posted by .spider.
Just for reference, took my top 14 cas pro competitive games and forced 5 on punts and 4 on kickoffs, so they happen more than you think.

Originally posted by SeattleNiner
FWIW TSW has 3 FF / TDs in WL Preseason so far so it's not like it never happens.

But was it against the top returners or lesser mortals? I can create fumbles against CPU and mediocre dots but, agaist the best builders, it's much less likely to happen. Also, against the best dots, you're much more likely to give up TD returns than against those 'other' teams so forcing the best returners to fair catch... or to hold them to very short returns... that will win you many games. I'm not quite as good at ST's as Guppy was/is... and we didn't see eye to eye on everything... but I learned a buttload of stuff from the ol' fish that I still use all the time.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
But was it against the top returners or lesser mortals? I can create fumbles against CPU and mediocre dots but, agaist the best builders, it's much less likely to happen. Also, against the best dots, you're much more likely to give up TD returns than against those 'other' teams so forcing the best returners to fair catch... or to hold them to very short returns... that will win you many games. I'm not quite as good at ST's as Guppy was/is... and we didn't see eye to eye on everything... but I learned a buttload of stuff from the ol' fish that I still use all the time.

WL

Originally posted by utvols
This build and strategy is VERY close to what Guppy preached. It works. I’ve got a FS like free willy and he does much of the same. Amazing how quick they get to the PR b/c of the rotten ST coding on punts. No good effective, reliable way to defend split end rushers. These guys do sacrifice in other areas, so there’s that.

I wasn't supposed to name drop, but mine were build for Guppy. He thought that he was going to have 3-4 WL teams for placement.

He really wanted a 170+ speed guy. Once I knew that I was going to have trouble getting to 170, I went above his recommendation for 1st step and closing speed, in order to compensate. He wasn't a fan of me going with Aura, because he didn't think that I would get enough contacts for it to really have any effect, and wanted something that would help break the LOS block on punts. It just didn't seem like these players needed it, so I added my own flair. The Aura definition says that I just have to be near them. So, not only can I affect returners, but if lined up right, I think that I can have an effect on kickers too on FG and XP tries.

Originally posted by .spider.
I hear you, from the sounds of OP, on punts it pretty much will force fair catches and will not give any FFUM opportunities, but on kickoffs it will force the wedge to block him and still give your FFUM guys a chance??? If so I'm willing to make that trade.

This was what he preached over and over. Punts are too iffy, because if the gunner misses that initial tackle on a punt to either sideline, it can turn into a long return, so he wanted to maximize net yardage. If it is punted to the opposite side, and the FF gunner creates a fumble, I needed to be fast enough to get there to scoop it up before any one else has a chance to. My job is to force a fair catch on anything under 50 yards to my side or the middle. On kickoffs, he said that my job is to get there fast enough to draw 2, if not all 3 wedge blockers to me, letting the FF guys to hit the returners at full speed, increasing the chance for a FF.

Originally posted by SeattleNiner
FWIW TSW has 3 FF / TDs in WL Preseason so far so it's not like it never happens.
Isn't that where Guppy's FS STOP ended up? You probably cannot tell us what he used for his extra SA. I don't remember any more, but I don't think that I convinced him to change to Aura.

Originally posted by sunder B
I don't know about punts, but I definitely see it kicking in after the returner catches it : http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2997163&pbp_id=231591
A big burst as soon as that returned grabs it.

I looked at some punts, but the ones that aren't fair catches he is running laterally so hard to tell.
I will catch any returner from behind or side, unless a blocker gets in my way. It is really obvious when I do get pancaked, then get up. Going across the field is like being shot out of a gun. The last time that I saw, I believe that I could make up 5 yards for every 10 yards run.

I do have trouble with shorter punts on the other side of the field, because I tend to overrun those. I cannot seem to turn well within the first 30-40 yards.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
But was it against the top returners or lesser mortals? I can create fumbles against CPU and mediocre dots but, agaist the best builders, it's much less likely to happen. Also, against the best dots, you're much more likely to give up TD returns than against those 'other' teams so forcing the best returners to fair catch... or to hold them to very short returns... that will win you many games. I'm not quite as good at ST's as Guppy was/is... and we didn't see eye to eye on everything... but I learned a buttload of stuff from the ol' fish that I still use all the time.

Well idk, cas pro is pretty competitive. And i did throw out the 2 games that where 100+-0

Originally posted by .spider.
Well idk, cas pro is pretty competitive. And i did throw out the 2 games that where 100+-0

I'm building a returner and was told that I should get at least 92 in carrying if I wanted a shot at WL. Does that hold true in casual pro?

Originally posted by Monkey Boy
I'm building a returner and was told that I should get at least 92 in carrying if I wanted a shot at WL. Does that hold true in casual pro?
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2969032&pbp_id=695895

This one had 92 carry plus another 6.68 from steady grip VA and spider's gunner got him to cough one up to win the game a few plays later in the Cas Pro Tourney.

There are plenty of good builder in CasPro these days. With special team there are no tactics advantages because special teams in Casual Pro are no different than they are in a regular league. If anything, probably more difficult in CasPro as they seem to have more free roster spots for STOPs as WL tends to fill up their rosters with a few more specialists than you see in Casual.

Originally posted by Monkey Boy


Originally posted by SeattleNiner
FWIW TSW has 3 FF / TDs in WL Preseason so far so it's not like it never happens.

Isn't that where Guppy's FS STOP ended up? You probably cannot tell us what he used for his extra SA. I don't remember any more, but I don't think that I convinced him to change to Aura.



Yes, you are correct & no Aura on the dot.

Originally posted by Monkey Boy
I'm building a returner and was told that I should get at least 92 in carrying if I wanted a shot at WL. Does that hold true in casual pro?

Returner on my team has 94, not sure about others.

I'm really liking the idea, i like the fair catches and also i like that when he gets to the wedge on kicks that get to the goal line or even a yard deep it seems to slow the returner down (waiting for blocks?) enough to where it's a tackle behind the 20.

I just dont know if I'd be ready to give up the chances at forcing fumbles that my gunners get now. I know i wouldnt give up completely, but i have to decide if it's worth the advantages that a dot like this brings.

bump

Originally posted by Monkey Boy
I'm building a returner and was told that I should get at least 92 in carrying if I wanted a shot at WL. Does that hold true in casual pro?

In a way, against the best teams, it kinda doesn't matter whether Casual or Regular. ST's are all about the depth chart setups... can't make any positional changes (like you can on defense with moving dots around)... and there's only the formations given you by GLB so you can't change those either. The only thing you can do it place dots where you get the best bang for the buck. So a returner needs to be built just as well for the Casual leagues as they are for WL or Pro.