Interception CBs are poster children for DvG
Forum > FAQ's, Player Guides and Newbie Help > Death Grip and Sure Tackler VA's
Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4578488
2 time WL DMVP that always had DvG.
He played in his first season of decline, and due to that training, he added 6 strength, 2 stamina, 2 tackling, and 4 pts in Super Vision. Post Plateau VAs are 4 Track Star, 4 High Jumper, and 5 Never Give Up. I invested a ton in jumping/catching to get INTs, but I didn't want him to be a liability when it came to tackling. He played for 6 seasons in WL, and missed 25 tackles during that time, while also having enough stamina/morale to get 59 interceptions.
Should I have built a stronger, better tackling dot?
I would call that borderline when deciding DvG as useful. Strength only 50 is just about at the edge of that... tackling of 62 also. Personally I would prefer a strength of 60 and a tackling of 70 then not have to use DvG. For the dot you show, I would agree with you on DvG. I would say though that his confidence is kinda low to use it. I would probably push it to 60+ but then we're back to that again... having to enhance a skill to justify a Va or Sa's use.
I have a coverage LB that is somewhat close to what you have there. As a LB he has a LOT more tackle attempts and, therefor more missed tackles. When I averaged out both, it came to about the same percentage (yours beat mine by .07%). My LB has 60+ strength but almost the identical same tackling skill. Like you, he was built to defend against the pass as his PRIMARY job... but, like you, I didn't want him useless as a tackler. He doesn't have DvG because his confidence is identical to yours... therefore I couldn't justify getting it. Instead I went with Sure tackler.
Ultimately this is almost an argument/discussion of a personal nature. I just don't believe in DvG enough to endorse it. You do as do a few others. I like quantity VA's and SA's more than limited effect ones. Give me a VA/SA that fires 20 times a game (like Long Reach in a heavy passing game) vs a VA/SA that only fires 3 times a game if lucky. Add to that the damage that a successful use of DvG gives your dot and while you stopped that particular play, your dot is now off the field because of the stamina hit and when it comes back it will have even less morale than it would normally have had (I suspect). Even if it doesn't, your dot is not making any tackles sitting on the bench with the oxygen bottle. And, maybe his replacement misses a tackle you WOULD have made... a tackle that results in a score... maybe even a loss. I just don't know about the ultimate value of DvG. I read it and think of what I would need to make it work well and NOT inflict damage on my dot that doesn't end up hurting the team and when I compare that to what I'm trying to build to help the team, I can't find justification. But that is ME. I believe I can find better VA's to use instead and that I can build a better tackling dot that doesn't/shouldn't need DvG. But I acquiesce that DvG can be something useful to CERTAIN dots like the one you showed. Just not every dot. If your strength was only 30 and your tackling only 50 would you use it? Would it matter? A dot like that is likely to not make the tackle, then DvG could fire and STILL fail as it allows only a re-roll with the 1% bonus (per level)... and even then it might fail again. For that dot, I would suggest Death Grip instead as it just might be the better VA in that regard. You must choose your VA's according to what you've built and why. Not because it 'might help in the 1% of a game it comes into play'. Anyways, that's what I believe.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4578488
2 time WL DMVP that always had DvG.
He played in his first season of decline, and due to that training, he added 6 strength, 2 stamina, 2 tackling, and 4 pts in Super Vision. Post Plateau VAs are 4 Track Star, 4 High Jumper, and 5 Never Give Up. I invested a ton in jumping/catching to get INTs, but I didn't want him to be a liability when it came to tackling. He played for 6 seasons in WL, and missed 25 tackles during that time, while also having enough stamina/morale to get 59 interceptions.
Should I have built a stronger, better tackling dot?
I would call that borderline when deciding DvG as useful. Strength only 50 is just about at the edge of that... tackling of 62 also. Personally I would prefer a strength of 60 and a tackling of 70 then not have to use DvG. For the dot you show, I would agree with you on DvG. I would say though that his confidence is kinda low to use it. I would probably push it to 60+ but then we're back to that again... having to enhance a skill to justify a Va or Sa's use.
I have a coverage LB that is somewhat close to what you have there. As a LB he has a LOT more tackle attempts and, therefor more missed tackles. When I averaged out both, it came to about the same percentage (yours beat mine by .07%). My LB has 60+ strength but almost the identical same tackling skill. Like you, he was built to defend against the pass as his PRIMARY job... but, like you, I didn't want him useless as a tackler. He doesn't have DvG because his confidence is identical to yours... therefore I couldn't justify getting it. Instead I went with Sure tackler.
Ultimately this is almost an argument/discussion of a personal nature. I just don't believe in DvG enough to endorse it. You do as do a few others. I like quantity VA's and SA's more than limited effect ones. Give me a VA/SA that fires 20 times a game (like Long Reach in a heavy passing game) vs a VA/SA that only fires 3 times a game if lucky. Add to that the damage that a successful use of DvG gives your dot and while you stopped that particular play, your dot is now off the field because of the stamina hit and when it comes back it will have even less morale than it would normally have had (I suspect). Even if it doesn't, your dot is not making any tackles sitting on the bench with the oxygen bottle. And, maybe his replacement misses a tackle you WOULD have made... a tackle that results in a score... maybe even a loss. I just don't know about the ultimate value of DvG. I read it and think of what I would need to make it work well and NOT inflict damage on my dot that doesn't end up hurting the team and when I compare that to what I'm trying to build to help the team, I can't find justification. But that is ME. I believe I can find better VA's to use instead and that I can build a better tackling dot that doesn't/shouldn't need DvG. But I acquiesce that DvG can be something useful to CERTAIN dots like the one you showed. Just not every dot. If your strength was only 30 and your tackling only 50 would you use it? Would it matter? A dot like that is likely to not make the tackle, then DvG could fire and STILL fail as it allows only a re-roll with the 1% bonus (per level)... and even then it might fail again. For that dot, I would suggest Death Grip instead as it just might be the better VA in that regard. You must choose your VA's according to what you've built and why. Not because it 'might help in the 1% of a game it comes into play'. Anyways, that's what I believe.
How can you condemn Sure Tackler for the same reasons that you praise Long Reach? There comes a point when you need to analyze your own logic and come to some hard conclusions. I would also be surprised to find that Long Reach has ever fired 20 times in a game for a single dot. Not that speculating on 1 or 2 games is how you should set up a VA plan unless your only competition is an all pass team.
Also, your LB is one of the worst tacklers I have seen someone laud in a while. He has, on average, missed almost half of his tackles since hitting plateau. If I had to guess why, one of the reasons would be a lack of DvG. This is on a dot not generating turnovers. Your focus on the need for high confidence to use DvG is insane. Literally insane. I could link a half dozen dots like Dave's with rings and MVPs that have confidence in the 20s with half your LB's % of missed tackles. Here is one for funsies http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4569784. I don't think you understand the serious effect that missed tackles have on a player and team.
I'm not sure what stats you were comparing with Dave's dot. Your LB has missed 37% of his tackle attempts in the last 3 seasons (more going back further). That would be a dealbreaker even as backup on my RPE team. You say that Dave's dot beat yours by .07%, but his missed tackle rate for his last 3 seasons is 4.8% which, by the way, is pretty incredible for an interception CB in WL. That kind of efficiency is no doubt one of the reasons Indy won WL last season.
I don't want to attack you Theo as you are a nice guy, but this really is a less subjective argument than you think and you are throwing out objectively bad advice almost entirely based on speculation. There are so many wrongs that it makes my head spin. You don't have to change your opinion, but you need to stop posting it here.
There are several bottom lines I think, one of which being that if you are planning your dot around a morale drain you have already lost. Of the 4 teams I own, they spent a combined 10 quarters trailing last season. A lot of the defense between them have DvG and most have Sure Tackler. Another bottom line in this climate is that if you take missed tackles lightly, you have already lost.
As a final adage, I will ask if you think 3rd Down Stopper or Mr. Reliable are important for dots that play on third downs. If yes, you should pick any player you like and count the number of times, on average, that they fire per game. Hint: it is less than 4 for every receiver on my fairly successful all passing team. There are plenty of important VAs/SAs that only fire a handful of times each game.
Also, your LB is one of the worst tacklers I have seen someone laud in a while. He has, on average, missed almost half of his tackles since hitting plateau. If I had to guess why, one of the reasons would be a lack of DvG. This is on a dot not generating turnovers. Your focus on the need for high confidence to use DvG is insane. Literally insane. I could link a half dozen dots like Dave's with rings and MVPs that have confidence in the 20s with half your LB's % of missed tackles. Here is one for funsies http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4569784. I don't think you understand the serious effect that missed tackles have on a player and team.
I'm not sure what stats you were comparing with Dave's dot. Your LB has missed 37% of his tackle attempts in the last 3 seasons (more going back further). That would be a dealbreaker even as backup on my RPE team. You say that Dave's dot beat yours by .07%, but his missed tackle rate for his last 3 seasons is 4.8% which, by the way, is pretty incredible for an interception CB in WL. That kind of efficiency is no doubt one of the reasons Indy won WL last season.
I don't want to attack you Theo as you are a nice guy, but this really is a less subjective argument than you think and you are throwing out objectively bad advice almost entirely based on speculation. There are so many wrongs that it makes my head spin. You don't have to change your opinion, but you need to stop posting it here.
There are several bottom lines I think, one of which being that if you are planning your dot around a morale drain you have already lost. Of the 4 teams I own, they spent a combined 10 quarters trailing last season. A lot of the defense between them have DvG and most have Sure Tackler. Another bottom line in this climate is that if you take missed tackles lightly, you have already lost.
As a final adage, I will ask if you think 3rd Down Stopper or Mr. Reliable are important for dots that play on third downs. If yes, you should pick any player you like and count the number of times, on average, that they fire per game. Hint: it is less than 4 for every receiver on my fairly successful all passing team. There are plenty of important VAs/SAs that only fire a handful of times each game.
Sonic
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Theo, this dot won an Pro MVP in it's last season with a strength of 31 and a confidence of 22 using DvG: http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4342457
I think it also played in WL as well.
I think it also played in WL as well.
Dave Mr Majors
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Originally posted by Donk3yMan
Another bottom line in this climate is that if you take missed tackles lightly, you have already lost.
Amen, brother!
Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
If your strength was only 30 and your tackling only 50 would you use it? Would it matter? A dot like that is likely to not make the tackle, then DvG could fire and STILL fail as it allows only a re-roll with the 1% bonus (per level)... and even then it might fail again. For that dot, I would suggest Death Grip instead as it just might be the better VA in that regard. You must choose your VA's according to what you've built and why. Not because it 'might help in the 1% of a game it comes into play'. Anyways, that's what I believe.
60 tackling is a prerequisite to be able to use DvG VA. I would never build a dot with 30 strength and 50 tackling, and I would never consider using a dot with those skills on a WL team.
Seriously...go watch some replays, and look at the energy/morale impact on a couple different defensive dots when making/missing tackles. At plateau, a tackle usually results in -1 energy and no change to morale. A missed tackle usually results in -1 energy and -1 morale. A DvG tackle is typically the only time I see morale go down with a made tackle, and that usually comes out as -2 energy and -1 morale.
Another bottom line in this climate is that if you take missed tackles lightly, you have already lost.
Amen, brother!Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
If your strength was only 30 and your tackling only 50 would you use it? Would it matter? A dot like that is likely to not make the tackle, then DvG could fire and STILL fail as it allows only a re-roll with the 1% bonus (per level)... and even then it might fail again. For that dot, I would suggest Death Grip instead as it just might be the better VA in that regard. You must choose your VA's according to what you've built and why. Not because it 'might help in the 1% of a game it comes into play'. Anyways, that's what I believe.
60 tackling is a prerequisite to be able to use DvG VA. I would never build a dot with 30 strength and 50 tackling, and I would never consider using a dot with those skills on a WL team.
Seriously...go watch some replays, and look at the energy/morale impact on a couple different defensive dots when making/missing tackles. At plateau, a tackle usually results in -1 energy and no change to morale. A missed tackle usually results in -1 energy and -1 morale. A DvG tackle is typically the only time I see morale go down with a made tackle, and that usually comes out as -2 energy and -1 morale.
sunder B
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Not advocating death grip (certainly not over DvG or Sure Tackler), but I have seen some dots with it perform well.
In this thread it is implied that death grip only allows you to slow down the runner for other tacklers and you will eventually lose the grip if another dot doesn't clean up after you, but I have seen dots with death grip improve their tackling with it. Typically you can see the ball carrier drag the defense dot a few extra yards, but they still ultimately make the tackle which is still better than a missed tackle for a long TD run.
In this thread it is implied that death grip only allows you to slow down the runner for other tacklers and you will eventually lose the grip if another dot doesn't clean up after you, but I have seen dots with death grip improve their tackling with it. Typically you can see the ball carrier drag the defense dot a few extra yards, but they still ultimately make the tackle which is still better than a missed tackle for a long TD run.
Sly
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I think this probably does happen. There's probably a small chance for a tackler being dragged to ultimately make the tackle every tick he manages to hang on, and I've watched a ton of film and believe I've seen some rare examples that look like that's what happened, but in my observation the chance of DG ultimately leading to a tackle is statistically very small, whereas the chance of significantly slowing the runner down for as long as the dot can hang on happens far more frequently. Therefore I find it most accurate to characterize DG as a VA that shouldn't be expected to increase tackles by that dot so much as to slow the runner and allow teammates to help. If you have some concrete evidence otherwise I'd be interested in hearing it.
Originally posted by shepsterbird
Just so happens,My 2 FS's are set as Sly Suggest. Will see as season goes.
well, your FS's are in regional pro, so hard to tell much there
Just so happens,My 2 FS's are set as Sly Suggest. Will see as season goes.
well, your FS's are in regional pro, so hard to tell much there
shepsterbird
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Well I can tell what mine are doing,to a degree. I am watching ReClaw and PD more than tackle.
In my thinking Tackle is after the player failed to prevent the reception.
Now as i am watching I agree with Sly and a few others that posted on the other VA's
and my own thought on strength seems to be a part of it.
In my thinking Tackle is after the player failed to prevent the reception.
Now as i am watching I agree with Sly and a few others that posted on the other VA's
and my own thought on strength seems to be a part of it.
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