Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TJ Spikes

No way...

As long as the defender can tackle at all to begin with, all ST does is provide RNG insurance. If the defender can't tackle anyway, it doesn't matter how many rolls he gets. Conversely, if the defender is a tackle machine, then he isn't going to need a second chance.




I completely disagree with this. You'd have to be a very poor tackler to not make most of your tackle attempts to begin with so if you get a 2nd chance, you have a good chance at making that tackle the 2nd time. A must have for most on defense IMO.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes

Originally posted by

If the tackle could not have been made without the bonus from David vs Goliath, the tackler uses double the energy normally used to make the tackle, and the runner loses double the morale.
Prerequisites: 60 tackling

Um... TJ, that's not accurate, This is cut and pasted EXACTLY from the VA itself;

The bigger they are… Each level of David vs. Goliath gives a +1% bonus to the success rate of tackling a player who is heavier or stronger. If the tackle could not have been made without the bonus from David vs. Goliath, the tackler uses double the energy normally used to make the tackle, and also loses morale.

Now I'll admit that I thought the double loss applied to BOTH the energy AND the morale and that I was wrong. But it does NOT effect the RUNNER as you stated. And, since energy is SO important to the dot (it's why dots with low stamina are shunned)... and since bad things effect a dot's (and team's) morale... then a exhausted dot would be HIGHLY susceptible to getting more and more morale hits... and also being much and much less able to make tackles due to being exhausted and the damage that does. This is why I say DvG is such a terrible VA. Perhaps it helps you make 2 tackles you might not have made otherwise... but, in the process, it would also cause you to miss MUCH more tackles, and preform poorly, when your team needs you the most... late in the game. The only way I would endorse it is if your DC KNEW and WANTED you to get it, knowing your dot would only play a tiny bit every game and therefore be fresh (like a specialty dot such as a CB used only to rush the passer... or that played ONLY on 1st down... ect, ect, ect.)


As far as ST goes, I agree that if you have a dot with 10 strength and 30 in tackling at plateau, then yer screwed by taking ST. You must have at LEAST somewhat decent abilities (skills) in both to make it worth taking. However, this post here;


Originally posted by Pena_FIN
Yes, common sense tells you that a re-roll wouldn't help you in the long run, that you'd on average win and lose just as many times* no matter how many rolls you get. But common sense goes out the window, when it's already been proven over the years that Sure Tackler will make your dot a better tackler.

* Obviously based on build vs. build. I'm not saying it's a 50/50 chance.

... is quite spot on. I would NOT endorse a VA or SA that I found to be ineffective... and am squeamish about endorsing those that are somewhat 'unable to be proved' (like Clutch... it would seem to be a very good VA but there's simply no way [or none that has been done yet] to prove it works.)
As far as DEATH GRIP goes, if you have a dot that has terrible strength and tackling, I actually COULD see a use for it as it would at LEAST slow down the runner (if it activated) long enough for other more able dots to come and make the tackle for you (cuz there's NO WAY you're going to be doing it.) I suspect you would still get hit with a missed tackle (because you did NOT make the tackle)... but it would help the team overall. But I wouldn't use it unless your dot was terrible in both strength and tacking.

What's worse...making the tackle and losing double the energy or missing the tackle (and very possibly in today's sim) giving up a long run/TD? Not to mention the tackle could be the difference between getting off the field on third down vs. facing another set of downs losing possibly more energy/morale.

Theo, I think you're making too big an issue of the lost stamina and morale. It's not like they lose 20 stamina. It's double the stamina used to make the tackle, not the stamina they use for the entire play. And in your scenario, if he only uses it twice a game, then that little extra lost stamina is not big deal. However, the missed tackle could turn into a big deal. If making 2 DvG tackles causes a stamina and morale spiral then I'd say that there is a problem with the build.

He will recover. I'm assuming that most teams have backups? Maybe he misses out on a few plays that he would have been in. Big deal.

Originally posted by DiMo28
Theo, I think you're making too big an issue of the lost stamina and morale. It's not like they lose 20 stamina. It's double the stamina used to make the tackle, not the stamina they use for the entire play. And in your scenario, if he only uses it twice a game, then that little extra lost stamina is not big deal. However, the missed tackle could turn into a big deal. If making 2 DvG tackles causes a stamina and morale spiral then I'd say that there is a problem with the build.

He will recover. I'm assuming that most teams have backups? Maybe he misses out on a few plays that he would have been in. Big deal.

What does a DvG tackle look like in the SIM?

Originally posted by Sellars
http://www.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2753971&pbp_id=1111059&flash=1

I've seen that before but I didn't associate that with DvG.Thanks

Originally posted by Sonic
I've seen that before but I didn't associate that with DvG.Thanks

Obviously u wouldn't really know on a non PT break tackle, but it should show for PT or Spin. At least I am assuming that is what is taking place on those replays. U see a break skill fire on sim but the tackle is made and it doesn't show on the PBP

Originally posted by Farlig
What's worse...making the tackle and losing double the energy or missing the tackle (and very possibly in today's sim) giving up a long run/TD? Not to mention the tackle could be the difference between getting off the field on third down vs. facing another set of downs losing possibly more energy/morale.





Originally posted by DiMo28
Theo, I think you're making too big an issue of the lost stamina and morale. It's not like they lose 20 stamina. It's double the stamina used to make the tackle, not the stamina they use for the entire play. And in your scenario, if he only uses it twice a game, then that little extra lost stamina is not big deal. However, the missed tackle could turn into a big deal. If making 2 DvG tackles causes a stamina and morale spiral then I'd say that there is a problem with the build.

He will recover. I'm assuming that most teams have backups? Maybe he misses out on a few plays that he would have been in. Big deal.

Both of you are looking at this from a single play ideal. Once you have DvG on your dot, it will activate every time your dot tries to make a tackle against a dot that is either STRONGER or HEAVIER. Now it's not going to FIRE every single time... but it has the chance of firing each time and every time it does fire, you take yet another double hit. So sure... in the 1st quarter of a game, who cares? But, over the course of the entire game, it adds up. And, in the 4th quarter... when you need it the most to stop your opponent... your dot is exhausted and demoralized from the 1st 3 quarters of the game because it combines with all the other factors that cause your dot to get tired and lose morale. It ADDS up... collectively... to make your dot a very weak link and unable to stop the play when you need it most, which is late in the game. The way around that would be to build a dot with 70+ stamina and 70+ confidence but why not put those SP's into strength and tackling and get Sure Tackler instead and have a dot that will make more tackles and miss less tackles and still be effective all game long? Anyways... that's my take on it. I agree with you that, when you look at it from a ONE SINGLE PLAY perspective, great... yer right. It's better to surrender the stamina and morale to make ONE TACKLE on ONE PLAY. Unfortunately the game generally take a lot more than one play and my thoughts are to have a dot that is effective for every play all game long as being the better choice. IMO.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Both of you are looking at this from a single play ideal. Once you have DvG on your dot, it will activate every time your dot tries to make a tackle against a dot that is either STRONGER or HEAVIER. Now it's not going to FIRE every single time... but it has the chance of firing each time and every time it does fire, you take yet another double hit. So sure... in the 1st quarter of a game, who cares? But, over the course of the entire game, it adds up. And, in the 4th quarter... when you need it the most to stop your opponent... your dot is exhausted and demoralized from the 1st 3 quarters of the game because it combines with all the other factors that cause your dot to get tired and lose morale. It ADDS up... collectively... to make your dot a very weak link and unable to stop the play when you need it most, which is late in the game. The way around that would be to build a dot with 70+ stamina and 70+ confidence but why not put those SP's into strength and tackling and get Sure Tackler instead and have a dot that will make more tackles and miss less tackles and still be effective all game long? Anyways... that's my take on it. I agree with you that, when you look at it from a ONE SINGLE PLAY perspective, great... yer right. It's better to surrender the stamina and morale to make ONE TACKLE on ONE PLAY. Unfortunately the game generally take a lot more than one play and my thoughts are to have a dot that is effective for every play all game long as being the better choice. IMO.

How many tackles are your players attempting per game? You don't take a hit on every tackle. Just the ones that need DvG to make the tackle against larger dots and my experience is that even the crappiest of tacklers are going to make about 50% of them without it so at most you take a hit on 1/2 of the tackles against larger dots (which again are how many?) I still think you are blowing the effects out of proportion and my last word on it because honestly I prefer people not use it nor Sure Tackler when they play me.

[edit: added portion about larger dots]

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
.Um... TJ, that's not accurate, This is cut and pasted EXACTLY from the VA itself;

Yup, you're right. That was a change that I never saw.

I pulled that from the old thread so I could copy paste easily
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3923906&page=1#34892253
another fine example of official GLB info being up to date

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Yup, you're right. That was a change that I never saw.

I pulled that from the old thread so I could copy paste easily
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3923906&page=1#34892253
another fine example of official GLB info being up to date







S'ok dude. Just tryin ta help the OP. Ya did good.