Warrior General Games

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
Honestly, you're chasing too many SA's for a STOP.

First Step isn't terribly important on ST's, and you can get away with no CD because there are no hard cuts like there would be if you're in man coverage and since you're running downhill you also don't really benefit much from CD.
I also wouldn't bother with wrap up tackle SA, just get tackling to the high 90's natural or low 100's, add textbook tackler and the STer VA and >20% mt AEQ and sure tackler VA, and there's no point in spending SP's and bonus tokens adding wrap up tackle to your STOP.

The only SA's that are necessary for a STOP are Monster Hit for the sizable bonus it offers to the FF roll and Head Hunter, for the sizable boost it offers to FF's and Monster Hit. You could make an argument for the diving tackle SA, but it's a luxury.

I'd much prefer to have a dot that Doesn't have monster hit in it's current trees, then just put MH in my bonus SA and purchase the Head Hunter SA with 30 BT's, then there is no unnecessary SA investment and you can save your SP's for boosting strength and tackling higher while still maintaining a good base of speed and agility.

I agree with this. Also, I'm not sure that BB SAs are really all that helpful if you go with a max weight/high strength DT.

Originally posted by Time Trial
Agility, Strength, Tackling, and Vision are the .5 majors. Speed is a .25 minor. Depending on the order you are building, that means that to maximize the HH LB build you are going to have to make speed a third or fourth attribute, which will mean some ALG losses compared to a combo DE or DT.


The HH LB trees:

1. Snarl, Aura, Diving Tackle, Monster Hit, DG
2. Trash Talk, The Glare, Shed Block, Swat Ball, BS

Missing and can be added:
First Step, Change Direction, Head Hunter, Wrap Up Tackle

I think we can all agree that the LB has the worst SA tree in all of GLB. To make a 10 point investment in Monster Hit, you need to make a 5 point investment in Diving Tackle, a 3 point investment in Aura, and a 2 point investment in Snarl.

You don't have any of the break run block skills that a DL would have and you have to invest in a bunch of skills you don't really want to get the max bonus from Monster Hit. You don't have speed as a major (instead you have vision).

HHLB Height range = 5'10" - 6'6"
HHLB Weight range = 240-270 Lbs

That is under the max weight for a DL.

Why wouldn't you take a DT instead?

CTDT Height range = 6'0" to 6'8"
CTDT Weight range = 280 to 330 Lbs

Major Attributes: Speed, Strength, Tackling, Vision (+.5)
Minor Attributes: Agility, Confidence, Stamina (+.33)

The Glare/Shed Blocks/Swat Ball/Strong Base/Big Sack
Wall/Break Thru/Snarl/Big Hit/D-Line General

Bonus SAs:

Monster Hit, Diving Tackle, Wrap Up Tackle, Headhunter, Change Direction, First Step

Analysis:

Pros:
Agility is a minor instead of a major, but it is a .33 minor compared to the HH LB where speed is a .25 minor.
You can make a taller and heavier dot.
You can make a 10 point investment in Monster Hit without needing to invest in any other SAs.
Has break block SAs.
AEQ rolls are ideal for STOP role.

Cons:
None of the listed Bonus SAs are in the tree. You would need to choose one to three to buy.
If you wanted to use the DT in the D instead of as a two-way STOP, the build is wrong.

lol, you might want to try and build one before you continue to argue for combo Dlinemen.

It's not nearly as hard as you're making it. MH as an AEQ piece solves a lot of the SA issues you have. Are you trying to argue you need 160-70 speed or something? Because you really don't. And again, that doesn't negate the defensive flexibility of the HH LB STOP.

You can believe what you want, but I'm always going to defend the HH LB STOP. It makes too much sense.

Originally posted by Homage
lol, you might want to try and build one before you continue to argue for combo Dlinemen.

It's not nearly as hard as you're making it. MH as an AEQ piece solves a lot of the SA issues you have. Are you trying to argue you need 160-70 speed or something? Because you really don't. And again, that doesn't negate the defensive flexibility of the HH LB STOP.

You can believe what you want, but I'm always going to defend the HH LB STOP. It makes too much sense.

Instead of arguing the different characteristics that make a good STOP, maybe y'all should just compare your ideal builds and debate those. Neither of you are using enough detail to make this argument go anywhere.

Since you like HH LBs, post a build that you would use.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
Honestly, you're chasing too many SA's for a STOP.

First Step isn't terribly important on ST's, and you can get away with no CD because there are no hard cuts like there would be if you're in man coverage and since you're running downhill you also don't really benefit much from CD.
I also wouldn't bother with wrap up tackle SA, just get tackling to the high 90's natural or low 100's, add textbook tackler and the STer VA and >20% mt AEQ and sure tackler VA, and there's no point in spending SP's and bonus tokens adding wrap up tackle to your STOP.

The only SA's that are necessary for a STOP are Monster Hit for the sizable bonus it offers to the FF roll and Head Hunter, for the sizable boost it offers to FF's and Monster Hit. You could make an argument for the diving tackle SA, but it's a luxury.

I'd much prefer to have a dot that Doesn't have monster hit in it's current trees, then just put MH in my bonus SA and purchase the Head Hunter SA with 30 BT's, then there is no unnecessary SA investment and you can save your SP's for boosting strength and tackling higher while still maintaining a good base of speed and agility.

I agree with you, I really was just listing the possible options for an FF STOP. I wouldn't argue that Monster Hit + Headhunter is as far as you need to go. I wasn't arguing against using the combo DT, but I was listing some of its drawbacks.

On a build where agility is under 85 and the speed is over 145, change direction helps to cut down the running lanes. Also momentum plays a big role, so not losing speed when changing directions is a huge boost.

Originally posted by Homage
lol, you might want to try and build one before you continue to argue for combo Dlinemen.

It's not nearly as hard as you're making it. MH as an AEQ piece solves a lot of the SA issues you have. Are you trying to argue you need 160-70 speed or something? Because you really don't. And again, that doesn't negate the defensive flexibility of the HH LB STOP.

You can believe what you want, but I'm always going to defend the HH LB STOP. It makes too much sense.

How fast do you think you are going to get with speed as a minor, and how much is that going to affect the overall build?

Where do you take strength, speed, and tackling? Where do you take agility?

I understand that taking an AEQ or CEQ and using it for Monster Hit sounds like a great idea, but you are losing out on other pieces of AEQ like Make Tackle and Force Fumble (to a lesser extent, break block or avoid fake).

Since you guys need your hands held:

Training Status:
strength : 3%
speed : 1%
agility : 0%
jumping : 6%
stamina : 19%
vision : 2%
confidence : 11%
blocking : 0%
throwing : 0%
catching : 0%
carrying : 0%
tackling : 2%
kicking : 0%
punting : 0%

Attributes:
strength : 89.1
speed : 89.26 + 55 = 144.26
agility : 86.1
jumping : 50.26
stamina : 69.26
vision : 61.1
confidence : 40.26
blocking : 8
throwing : 8
catching : 8
carrying : 8
tackling : 100.1
kicking : 8
punting : 8

Top SA Tree: | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 0 | (add + 1 to tree)
Bottom SA Tree: | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Additional SA Tree: | 8 | 8 |

AEQ/CEQ:

2x FFum%
1x MT%
1x MH (giving you 11 in MH)

Also has 11 SP left over to potentially bring HH to 10 (which is what I'd probably do).

This is one of my attempts at making a fast, light FF build:

All I've had today was six gummy bears and scotch (Lv. 54 CB)
Ht/Wt: 5'8", 170lbs

Attributes:

Strength: 75.85
Speed: 134.85 (+36)
Agility: 85.85
Jumping: 17.51
Stamina: 23.51
Vision: 20.51 (+3)
Confidence: 19.51
Tackling: 81.85

Speedster Abilities
First Step: 1
Change Direction: 1
Return Specialist: 1
Blitz: 1
Closing Speed: 1

Additional Abilities
Monster Hit: 0
Head Hunter 0

Veteran Abilities
David vs Goliath: 6
Distance Runner: 15
Special Teamer: 15

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Make tackle chance: +16% - both AEQ, have not bought CEQ upgrades until I try and roll a FF AEQ.
/build

Obviously not done yet, as is only at level 54, but already well on the way to creating a high-flying first man in hitter.




2nd build, blocker/tackler combo:

You could drown a toddler in my panties (Lv. 57 CB)
Ht/Wt: 6'3", 210lbs

Experience, Skill Points, and Cash
Money: $0
Daily Salary: $1625
Skill Points: 0
Training Points: 2
Bonus Tokens: 53
Veteran Points: 0
Next Level: 250/1000

Strength: 85.48
Speed: 132.48 (+36)
Agility: 86.48 (+3)
Jumping: 21.84
Stamina: 15.84
Vision: 21.84
Confidence: 19.84
Blocking: 60
Tackling: 73.48


Speedster Abilities
First Step: 1
Change Direction: 1
Return Specialist: 1
Blitz: 1
Closing Speed: 5

Additional Abilities
Monster Hit: 0
Veteran Abilities
Distance Runner: 15
Special Teamer: 15
Sure Tackler: 6

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Force fumble chance: +12%




3rd build, another strength first build:

I liked him better when he had cancer (Lv. 54 CB)
Ht/Wt: 5'8", 210lbs

Strength: 98.85
Speed: 116.85 (+31)
Agility: 77.85 (+6)
Jumping: 17.51
Stamina: 19.51
Vision: 17.51
Confidence: 19.51
Blocking: 53
Tackling: 73.85


Speedster Abilities
First Step: 1
Change Direction: 1
Return Specialist: 1
Blitz: 1
Closing Speed: 1

Additional Abilities
Monster Hit: 0
Veteran Abilities
Textbook Tackler: 6
Distance Runner: 15
Special Teamer: 15

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Tackling: +2.22
Break block chance: +9%
Hold block chance: +9%



4th build, another two-way build:

Hey, will you choke me a bit? (Lv. 57 CB)
Ht/Wt: 6'3", 170lbs

Experience, Skill Points, and Cash
Money: $0
Daily Salary: $1625
Skill Points: 0
Training Points: 0
Bonus Tokens: 1
Veteran Points: 0
Next Level: 250/1000

Strength: 86.48
Speed: 128.48 (+29)
Agility: 84.48 (+7)
Jumping: 21.84
Stamina: 20.84 (+1)
Vision: 23.84 (+2)
Confidence: 19.84
Blocking: 33
Tackling: 82.48


Speedster Abilities
First Step: 1
Change Direction: 1
Return Specialist: 1
Blitz: 1
Closing Speed: 1

Additional Abilities
Monster Hit: 0
Veteran Abilities
Textbook Tackler: 6
Distance Runner: 15
Special Teamer: 15

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Tackling: +2.47
Hold block chance: +17.5%

All of them are going to have excellent end-build SP Values, and they should serve their purposes.

I wish I had built a couple of Combo DTs and DEs though.

You're going to be disappointed in your CB's.

They'll be fast and get tackles... but turnovers are going to be hard to come by.

Originally posted by Homage
You're going to be disappointed in your CB's.

They'll be fast and get tackles... but turnovers are going to be hard to come by.

Yeah, it was more about two-way STOPs for those players. I'm just worried about fakes tbh.

I'm thinking that a good field-position win is what I'm going for. I play possession returners (110+ carrying), so all I'm trying to do is hold off the turnovers and get better field position than I give up.

I'm actually a terrible STC despite the number of offers that I get. I get where I am with my return teams by building good two-way players.

Originally posted by Homage
You're going to be disappointed in your CB's.

They'll be fast and get tackles... but turnovers are going to be hard to come by.

I am hoping that D v G will help on the really light ones, but I don't know how well the make tackle scores will translate into FF scores.

Originally posted by Time Trial
Yeah, it was more about two-way STOPs for those players. I'm just worried about fakes tbh.

I'm thinking that a good field-position win is what I'm going for. I play possession returners (110+ carrying), so all I'm trying to do is hold off the turnovers and get better field position than I give up.

I'm actually a terrible STC despite the number of offers that I get. I get where I am with my return teams by building good two-way players.

My philosophy is all turnovers (as you can tell)...

We just ignore the returner aspect... we build a good returner and surround them with blockers, but those are just bFB's/bTE's/O-linemen + STOPs to fill the gap. I just value the potency of an offense over the potency of a kick/punt return TD.

And we've had plenty of huge returns in past and present... so I always find it hard to invest in a two-way STOP. Others obviously have different viewpoints.

I wouldn't consider myself a coordinator... because I think it's a fucking joke (compared to the OC/DC aspect). It's super easy and all you do is put guys in certain places and voila, shit happens. Turnovers.

Originally posted by Homage
Since you guys need your hands held:

Training Status:
strength : 3%
speed : 1%
agility : 0%
jumping : 6%
stamina : 19%
vision : 2%
confidence : 11%
blocking : 0%
throwing : 0%
catching : 0%
carrying : 0%
tackling : 2%
kicking : 0%
punting : 0%

Attributes:
strength : 89.1
speed : 89.26 + 55 = 144.26
agility : 86.1
jumping : 50.26
stamina : 69.26
vision : 61.1
confidence : 40.26
blocking : 8
throwing : 8
catching : 8
carrying : 8
tackling : 100.1
kicking : 8
punting : 8

Top SA Tree: | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 0 | (add + 1 to tree)
Bottom SA Tree: | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Additional SA Tree: | 8 | 8 |

AEQ/CEQ:

2x FFum%
1x MT%
1x MH (giving you 11 in MH)

Also has 11 SP left over to potentially bring HH to 10 (which is what I'd probably do).

Here's what I intend to do with mine:

Crushing Your Puny Returner (Lv. 79 DT)
Ht/Wt: 6'0", 330lbs

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 110.10 (+7)
Speed: 140.10 (+48)
Agility: 81
Jumping: 33
Stamina: 62
Vision: 70.10
Confidence: 40

Football Skills
Blocking: 8
Catching: 8
Tackling: 96.10
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 8
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Pass Rusher Abilities
The Glare: 0
Shed Blocks: 0
Swat Ball: 0
Strong Base: 0
Big Sack: 0

Run Stuffer Abilities
Wall: 2
Break Through: 2
Snarl: 3
Big Hit: 5
D-Line General: 1

Additional Abilities
Head Hunter: 10
Monster Hit: 10

Veteran Abilities
Textbook Tackler: 15
Power Tackler: 15
Special Teamer: 15
Sure Tackler: 15
Workout Warrior: 11
OTK: 1

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Force fumble chance: +21%
Make tackle chance: +15%
Break Block Chance +15%

Nice. Not sure I'd even bother with Big Hit, but yeah. Solid scheme.

I just like the flexibility of being able to shove those LB's into slots for run defense as well.

Losing that ability isn't worth the gains imo... which aren't that much more.

Originally posted by Homage
Nice. Not sure I'd even bother with Big Hit, but yeah. Solid scheme.

I just like the flexibility of being able to shove those LB's into slots for run defense as well.

Losing that ability isn't worth the gains imo... which aren't that much more.

What would you do with you VAs then?

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
What would you do with you VAs then?

I would overload on OTK. If you're going to bother with conf, might as well get the full benefit.