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MileHighShoes
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Originally posted by coreyls18
oh well good, looks like he learned you dont need that much strength/tackling as a CB


It can work just fine if you do it right.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2298026
This was my 2nd attempt and when you include KL's, his actual reception allowed percent was 42%, while also being useful against the run and tacking on the odd fumble. I DCed the dot including a second CB I build exactly like him for his entire career up to season 29 and it made my job a lot easier.
My 3rd attempts just plateaud at the beginning of this season, and they are faster and have more of every attribute, a 43% rec allowed rate and a 19% fumble rate per tackle attempt. He also does not play ANY special teams, so all of his fumbles come strictly from playing defense, you can check the game log if you don't believe me.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4262238
I also have a 4th wave coming that will be even better than the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd wave of HH CB's I made, but there is more than one type of DB to be made use of in the secondary.

I'm sorry if I de-railed the thread so I'll post something on topic.
For a man or int CB, any less than 70 jumping is absolutely silly. My man plateau CB had 80 jumping, and my work in progress int CB will have 75 jumping, which I consider low.
As far as catching goes, if you are making a purely defensive Cb who disrupts plays but doesn't quite have the ability to come down with the ball in hand often, don't touch catching. You either need to softcap catching, or avoid it altogether. 30 catching, as compared to 22 (or whatever the minimum is for man archetypes) has no discernible difference except the time, TP's, and SP's you wasted training catching. But the difference from 22 to 50 is quite a bit as far as performance is concerned. And if you are making a CB who you intend to be good at making picks, you'll want to get catching past 74. My int CB will have 82 catching with the Soft Hands Va included, along with 10 sticky hands.

Your dots attributes should reflect what you intend them to be good at, no dot is perfect and every dot has weaknesses.

Aaasahi did not learn one archetype to be inferior to others, he is more likely trying his hand at them all. Without people testing the limits and differences that every conceivable player type and archetype has to offer we'd all be stuck with cookie cutter builds and nothing would matter in this game except the coordinators who would most likely all just run the same plays.

You would also probably tell someone that no DT ever needs 80+ jumping, and yet, you probably also would never envision a DT who gets more than one PD a game in USAPL and has 83 career PD's in his first season of plateau.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4256446
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by MileHighShoes

As far as catching goes, if you are making a purely defensive Cb who disrupts plays but doesn't quite have the ability to come down with the ball in hand often, don't touch catching. You either need to softcap catching, or avoid it altogether. 30 catching, as compared to 22 (or whatever the minimum is for man archetypes) has no discernible difference except the time, TP's, and SP's you wasted training catching. But the difference from 22 to 50 is quite a bit as far as performance is concerned. And if you are making a CB who you intend to be good at making picks, you'll want to get catching past 74. My int CB will have 82 catching with the Soft Hands Va included, along with 10 sticky hands.



^^^ this 100%. Good job MHS.
 
ezra_
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Originally posted by coreyls18
In aaasahi's defense his CB has 64 jumping not 50. I personally take my jumping on my CBs in the mid 70-80 range.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2563254
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2563251

Sad thing is my CBs have 18 and 50 strength with not very good tackling either(63 and 69) But yet my CBs have better tackle to miss tackles than aaasahis and his CB has 85 strength and 80 tackling. Doesnt make much sense.

scratch that, it does make sense. He is on a jdb team. So he is playing on balanced or power tackling style w/power tackler VA. I use to toy with that VA and tackling tactic for DBs, but gave up on it. Trade off wasnt good enough. And in this case it isnt either.


I take jumping to 75-80 ish on CBs, and bring up vision second to speed, so Speed>Vision>Agility>Jump. I would rather be in position with lower agility and jump better than the WR vs being able to get in position but be faked, then not have jumping on my side. For me, the jumping cuts down angles, but I am only ok at making dots, and by no means a Bort stalker.
Edited by ezra_ on Jun 25, 2013 04:12:03
Edited by ezra_ on Jun 25, 2013 04:11:44
Edited by ezra_ on Jun 25, 2013 04:11:13
 
ezra_
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Oh and pick dots are all about vision and jumping. Catch is secondary to both. Speed and agility are not what matters. You need to see it and go get it 1st.
 
toobad4u_00
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Quite the contrary Miles, I don't think you were derailing anything. I think that was great information, while not directly on topic of the OP it was directly on topic with the flow of the thread. I also happen to think it was very interesting information. Perhaps I would have felt differently if I thought it was uninteresting.

I certainly understand where you are coming from on the not touching it if you aren't going to at least cap it; I feel that way precisely about many attributes.... not all of course (it is so hard to talk in absolutes).
 
Longhornfan1024
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Originally posted by InRomoWeTrust


The challenge with #3 is you HAVE to get the INTs versus quality competition for the build to be considered even mildly productive. You can very easily get burned when you are making sacrifices in speed/agility/vision/jumping for the greater catching.


Who says you have to give on speed/agility/vision/jumping to make a true INT CB?

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4295798

Switch out his catching EQ for speed and that's a 150 speed/90 agility/90 vision/78-80 jumping/80 catching (87 with SH) CB at plateau.
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
Who says you have to give on speed/agility/vision/jumping to make a true INT CB?

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4295798

Switch out his catching EQ for speed and that's a 150 speed/90 agility/90 vision/78-80 jumping/80 catching (87 with SH) CB at plateau.


Good build... but can he tackle?
 
Longhornfan1024
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Good build... but can he tackle?


He'll end up with 50 strength, 70+ tackling, and +15% MT chance. I'd say that's pretty good.
 
toobad4u_00
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Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
He'll end up with 50 strength, 70+ tackling, and +15% MT chance. I'd say that's pretty good.


Yeah, I like this build actually. I looked at it with disgust as I viewed my CB that prompted this question.
 
coreyls18
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Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
He'll end up with 50 strength, 70+ tackling, and +15% MT chance. I'd say that's pretty good.


Do you notice anything bad with his coverage at all with that low speed/agility? Just trying to see if the trade off is worth it. Yeah the stats look pretty but does he ever give up a deep ball? If a fast WR goes on a streak does he get burned easy? Also on the short in and out routes that are so popular now, can he even keep up? Cause in the 14 losses your team has in scrims he only has 3 INTs. All other games are basically blowouts. So all that tells me is he can pick off shitty QBs or cpu QBs and not do much vs good QBs/teams. But still intrigued and thinking of trying something like this.
Edited by coreyls18 on Jun 26, 2013 08:15:22
 
Longhornfan1024
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Originally posted by coreyls18
Do you notice anything bad with his coverage at all with that low speed/agility? Just trying to see if the trade off is worth it. Yeah the stats look pretty but does he ever give up a deep ball? If a fast WR goes on a streak does he get burned easy? Also on the short in and out routes that are so popular now, can he even keep up? Cause in the 14 losses your team has in scrims he only has 3 INTs. All other games are basically blowouts. So all that tells me is he can pick off shitty QBs or cpu QBs and not do much vs good QBs/teams. But still intrigued and thinking of trying something like this.


Honestly, at this point it's impossible to tell. The competition in his league is so poor that everything he does just needs to be thrown out. But next season he'll be in WL on Mojo and we'll probably play around with his speed to see what works best. I set it up so that I could switch his 4th piece of EQ between speed and catching (150/80ish or 140/90ish) and his CEQ between AF% and PD% depending on what works best. I have a feeling by the end of the pre-season next season he'll be at 150 speed/80 catching with +12% PD chance so that he isn't a liability in WL.
 
ezra_
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@ LHF, well he should be backed up by another dot and be standing in front of the receiver anyway. He seems fine to me.
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by coreyls18
Do you notice anything bad with his coverage at all with that low speed/agility? Just trying to see if the trade off is worth it. Yeah the stats look pretty but does he ever give up a deep ball? If a fast WR goes on a streak does he get burned easy? Also on the short in and out routes that are so popular now, can he even keep up? Cause in the 14 losses your team has in scrims he only has 3 INTs. All other games are basically blowouts. So all that tells me is he can pick off shitty QBs or cpu QBs and not do much vs good QBs/teams. But still intrigued and thinking of trying something like this.


I have found it is a simi-dangerous tradeoff. Several seasons ago I built a CB specifically designed to deflect passes and make interceptions. I had to trade off some speed to get what I wanted at the end (not a lot... right around what LHF's dot has). It worked so well I'm trying it again but with a different archetype (think I used HH first time). I believe it will work better.
Where the danger comes in is if your defense cannot get pressure on the QB. Then, eventually on go routes and post patterns, the WR can outrun you enough to make the catch in stride... then he's gone and you don't have enough speed to catch him. While that never happened to me, I know it's out there. So you need a solid DC and solid D-dots to make sure the QB can't sit back there all day and wait for the deep routes to get open.

@ezra Not really... if you make the DB tall enough and give him enough jumping, even in a trailing position he makes the play every time... unless it's like I posted above (concerning the D-line's pressure, or lack thereof) . Then, yeah... you need safeties playing 40 yards deep.
 
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