Warrior General Games

Originally posted by TheShaguar
Ok, so you keep intense training your primary?

How much does that give you per train? Did you do the math on it before spending all the SPs for that extra ALG point? I doubt it.

Intense training is a dirty word. Anyone who still intense trains their dot needs to have their math checked over.

Training benefits, BTs, timing of levels, gaining 90+% in an attribute before you stop training... there are so many elements to consider when determining the effectiveness of method.

The other element, and one that is often overlooked, is time. You don't have an unlimited number of days to do what you need to do. Every time you intense train is a day that you need to make up for those lost BTs later on.

And the people who promote multi need to realize that, yes you get almost as many BTs as normal training on quad, but that you are only training every four days.

From what I can tell triple training for the first season is better than quad training, and much better than intense training, but that Quad training after a certain point yields the best results.

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Time trial, I understand where you come from. I think the whole game would come up better if the newer players would get better overall builds, but at the same time, we need to make sure we don't prevent them from getting GREAT overall builds, you see?

People don't get taught calculus before they learn trig. The method you use the first time you build a dot doesn't mean that you will be forced to continue to use that method. Trying to teach new players advanced building techniques before they even understand the basics of the game is only going to scare new players away.

The method I am proposing is going to yield an excellent dot, and is difficult to screw up. While the new player is learning how the game works (there is a LOT to learn), he will eventually be able to understand things like how ALGs work, what the real cost of AEQ is, and the effectiveness of certain abilities.

To try and throw a complicated build process in on top of that is only going to terrify the average new user.

Hmmm "excellent" might be saying too much, no ? :/

Anyway, I said I agree with your idea, I just think you should also state it's not the ideal method as you spread it.

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Hmmm "excellent" might be saying too much, no ? :/

Anyway, I said I agree with your idea, I just think you should also state it's not the ideal method as you spread it.



People look only at the benefit of their action and ignore the opportunity cost. This is especially true of how far to train your second attribute before taking it over the cap. When does the benefit of training efficiency (not training an attribute between X and 48 in order to spend SP to cap it before resuming training) exceed the opportunity cost of continuing to train your secondary attribute while spending those SPs on your primary?

Eh... why quote me and say that?I don't get the relation. I was talking about the "teaching method to noobs" nothing more...

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Eh... why quote me and say that?o_OI don't get the relation. I was talking about the "teaching method to noobs" nothing more...

Yeah, but the people trying to teach the noobs expect them to understand those kinds of concepts in quad training.

Originally posted by Time Trial
From what I can tell triple training for the first season is better than quad training, and much better than intense training, but that Quad training after a certain point yields the best results.

Just a question...how is this the case? You get less than 3 bonus tokens per day on 3 way training (8BT every 3 days) and 3 bonus tokens per day on 4 way (12BT every 4 days)...plus you get a bigger bonus to training. Sure Normal training will get you 4 bonus tokens per day, so if BTs was your only concern for the first season then sure, train on normal. But the HUGE loss on training percent that early in your career is worth the loss of BTs that early which can be made up for later on in the career.


however teaching newbies the single train method is a good idea if they are looking at playing casual for a while...without getting them confused too much...I agree.

I think the issue with triple instead of quadruple training is related to getting the primary up faster. I know rage_kinard is also a huge proponent of that.

Originally posted by Hagalaz
I think the issue with triple instead of quadruple training is related to getting the primary up faster. I know rage_kinard is also a huge proponent of that.

Ahhh...I thought he was referring to getting more bonus tokens.

Originally posted by Mat McBriar
User is either including VAs or forgets that training drops to the dumb ~1% after you cross the 100.00 barrier.

170 speed does include VA's

Originally posted by Time Trial
how high are you going to be able to get your agility and carrying? How about your strength? How many AEQ are you going to have?

SAs are so important for HBs, how much SP are you going to have left over to put into SAs? Are you going to have enough BTs to buy any additional SAs? You are going to have a fast dot, but how often are you going to be able to actually hit max velocity? Are you going to be able to cut at all without losing all your velocity?

I think teaching noobs that style is just as bad.

Again, I'm not saying that my build is ideal, but it is easy to teach and you will end up with 4 AEQ in the end, and for most positions, you cannot rely on just having a super attribute anymore.

Q: how high are you going to be able to get your agility and carrying?
A: My agility will be at 90 (or 94 to 95) if I decided to use 15 VA's to add to it. Will decide that when time comes. My Carrying will be capped at 73 as I am sacrificing some of my carrying to add to speed. I am a scat back so my Carrying doesn't need to be as high as a HB that runs into the Dline and LB's a lot. I will face a lot of CB's as defenses will tag me

Q: How about your strength?
A: My strength will be capped at 61. Sufficient for the build that I am aiming for as a scat back.

Q: How many AEQ are you going to have?
A: I will have 3 FULL pieces of AE. I will have the 4th piece of AE with the +3 to my main attribute but I will not have the modifier that goes with it. I will have enough to get the +3 extra to my speed on 4 pieces of AE but on 1 of those pieces I will not have it modified to add an SA or a percentage piece to it. I will probably go with catch ball % on 1 of my pieces along with catch ball % with my custom equipment upgrades and a fake chance with my 2nd piece and maybe an SA with my 3rd piece. Will wait til that time and see what the SIM is like.

Q:SAs are so important for HBs, how much SP are you going to have left over to put into SAs?
A: My SA's will be just as loaded as the next guy's. I cannot say for sure exactly what my SA tree will look like as I am waiting til it is time and see what the SIM is like as that will directly affect how many points I put where as far as my SA's go.

Q: Are you going to have enough BTs to buy any additional SAs?
A: Yes

Q: how often are you going to be able to actually hit max velocity?
A: I will be a scat back so much more often than a pure rusher.

Q: Are you going to be able to cut at all without losing all your velocity?
A: Yes

All you have to do is break out the Veteran Player Builder and you can experiment around and figure out what you want. The new "normal" is for players to have 150-160 speed. I wanted to hit 170 speed so got into the VPB and I am going to try it. I may suck and retire him. It really depends on the SIM from season to season.

But if you want your primary attributes to hold up against great dot builders than you have to get your primary attribute as high as you can as fast as you can. Plenty of time to multi train later.

And people still complain about 'cookie cutter' builds.

I think this thread has demonstrated that not only are people building very different dots, but that there are lots of different ways to start and end your build.

Originally posted by Time Trial
And people still complain about 'cookie cutter' builds.

I think this thread has demonstrated that not only are people building very different dots, but that there are lots of different ways to start and end your build.

Completely agree. There is still the element of cookie cutter as far as which attributes are focused on and in what order they are focused on. The difference is how you get there. Train one way and you can have very high top 3 attributes but sucky other attributes but can explode on some plays due to the high top 3 attributes. Train another way and you can have high attributes across the board but don't stand out in any way great.

The training scheme is probably Bort's best ever change tbh (closely followed by archetypes)

Originally posted by Hagalaz
I think the issue with triple instead of quadruple training is related to getting the primary up faster. I know rage_kinard is also a huge proponent of that.

Triple is most likely the best method for dots that need 2-3 high attributes, and can get by with all the rest in the 60-80 range. This, imo, is the ideal way to build O and D line. Doesn't work well for CB, TE, LB, S, etc. Dots that need 3-5 attributes at a high level, are better off quad training.

You can pretty easily hit these numbers, with triple training until level 20-22, and 3 AEQ.

Position: de_run_stopper
Attributes:
strength : 103
speed : 92
agility : 95
jumping : 18
stamina : 61
vision : 75
confidence : 50
blocking : 8
throwing : 8
catching : 8
carrying : 8
tackling : 80
kicking : 8
punting : 8


That's natural, with 55 equip points, and maybe 60-70 SP left over for SA's. That's also with training jumping, which gets no ALG's with this archetype. You could easily skip that training on a run stuffer, and raise something else.