Warrior General Games

For high level possession WRs, Ball Hawk eventually becomes useful, I think - just because there are only really 3 good VAs for that type of build (4 if you include HH/HoC). It is clearly behind Possession Receiver, Mr. Reliable, and Soft Hands, though.

Originally posted by hoyaboy1
For high level possession WRs, Ball Hawk eventually becomes useful, I think - just because there are only really 3 good VAs for that type of build (4 if you include HH/HoC). It is clearly behind Possession Receiver, Mr. Reliable, and Soft Hands, though.

well the way i see it, for a possession build, BH could maybe eventually be gotten for a down the line VA, but even then, i dont see much use out of it. possession receivers arent gonna have the speed to run deep routes very often, so a lot of the routes they run (if you can control it) will be intermediate routes, and those wont give much time for a receiver to adjust to a bad pass, and the vision bonus you get from BH probably wont be enough to really help you catch it, because as wise brought up, the bad pass quality is gonna make it very easy for a CB (who also is getting the vision bonus from their BH) to just swat it down. and if you have a possession receiver that is running a deep route, the % bonus they receive to speed and agility probably isnt going to be enough for them to get to the ball before the CB does.

for a possession receiver i would take a number of VAs before BH...

possession receiver, mr. reliable, soft hands, high jumper, streaky, maybe slow starter, as you said maybe some HH or HoC, and maybe even some second wind.

I don't think second wind is very good to begin with, but especially not for slow players (note - when I say "possession WR," I'm not thinking 120+ speed. Mine, for example, has less than 80). I'm also not sure how much streaky will help for guys that can't really get open anyway. High jumper is OK.

The point of ball hawk isn't really to get to badly thrown balls, since as you said, a possession WR will likely be too slow anyway. But the 15% vision bonus helps somewhat in the catch roll, and if the agility/speed boost helps you get into marginally better position for the catch, it can't hurt.

I definitely don't think BH is awesome, but for a slow possession WR, once you get to your 4th and 5th VAs I kinda like it.

streaky is a VA that every VA should have, and slow starter is really almost the same kind of deal, but you get a penalty for a quarter and a bigger bonus for a half. and fwiw, i would take high jumper for a possession receiver over ball hawk every time. that going to help your anti PD score way more than a bonus to vision.

and i agree second wind isnt that great, but an energy refill equivalent to being on the bench for about 2 minutes at the beginning of the 2nd quarter and 4th quarter is nice. now its not gonna help a slower receiver as much as a speedster, but if you can keep your energy up, that is only going to help you... and that help is probably going to be worth more than any benefit you get from BH, imo.

I don't know nearly enough about how the catch roll works to say that 7.5% jumping is better than 30% vision and 30% agility (plus whatever bonus there is from the speed and agility getting you into better position).

I still completely disagree on second wind. It isn't very useful for players with low speed unless for some reason they are in for tons of plays. Slow starter isn't great for a WR either since top teams will pass more in the 1st than the 4th.

Streaky is good for WRs, just like it is good for every position in that you are getting a bonus 4/5 games - but it isn't as useful for a possession WR, because you lose out on the "the QB will throw to the WRs that have good streaky and not to the ones that have bad streaky." Since a possession WR isn't getting open much anyway, it won't effect your targets, just give a marginal boost/penalty to how often you catch them.

Again, after the big 3, I don't think it matters much. The difference between HJ, BH, Streaky, etc. is probably marginal.

vision is really a minor part of the catch roll. while if you have more jumping than an opposing CB, its going to be a lot harder for them to swat the ball down on you. and as for the bonus to agility and speed... im not sure that agility plays into the anti PD roll aside from getting into position, but as i stated above, if its a poorly thrown ball (as in way off target) the speed and agility bonus isnt going to help you, and if its thrown right at you, but just with bad quality, the bonus to agility and speed wont come into play and all you are dealing with is the vision bonus. and that, in itself, is not enough to do anything. if the pass has poor quality, and a CB is in the area, it will be deflected. so i think streaky and high jumper are actually quite a bit better. for one thing high jumper will work for every ball thrown your way (not only for bad passes), and then a 5% bonus to all attributes is golden. with high jumper and streaky, you are taking 74 capped jumping and pushing it to 83+. most CBs are gonna have a hard time with that.

and i dont get you argument for streaky... at all. for most games most if not all the WRs will probably be on a good streaky day....

and then i cant say ive played around with slow starter, but im pretty sure the top teams in the game pretty much pass the whole game. and slow starter just gives you a 5% penalty in the first quarter for a 6% bonus in the 2nd half. so if you get enough plays in the first quarter to make it work, i dont see why it wouldnt be worth it for really any dot. although i would probably pair it with second wind.

and i cant say ive ever played aorund with second wind, but i know CBs are ending games with about 40-45 energy (or at least they were in the early preseason)... and i can imagine that a WR would be about the same. and whie, again, i havent played aorund with second wind, i can imagine you would maybe start ending games around 60 energy, and obviously a 60 energy player is going to be a lot better than a 40 energy player.

For the catch roll, you are basically making things up and stating it as fact. None of us knows if +7.5% jumping is better than 30% vision, 30% agility, and improved position. I, at least, haven't noticed much of a difference - but my WR already probably has ~15 more jumping than any corner I have ever faced.

Slow WRs aren't dropping to anywhere near 40-45 energy. And second wind doesn't work very well anyway.

You aren't going to get 15 first quarter plays on a good team.

And, finally, you seem to be misunderstanding the main reason people think Streaky is particularly good for WRs. But it is still a very good VA.

It's lame to name drop, but I probably had the most extreme possession WR in the World League last season, and was on the best passing offense ever in GLB run by the best dot builder. I'm not talking out of my ass (at least not entirely).

actually bort has said himself that vision doesnt play a huge roll in the catching roll or the anti PD roll. (ill try to find a link tomorrow) i would imagine that to mean that it plays about the same size role as carrying does in catching, or that strength plays in the PD roll for CBs when they have to fight for the ball. it will help, but there are other thiings that help more. and then i know jumping helps a lot, not because i have a ton of WRs, but because i have played around with lots of CBs. the higher a CB's jumping the better, and to combat that, possession WRs are going to need lots of jumping, and high jumper will only help.

well there ya go then. i cant say ive ever seen a WR's end game energy. so if youre not getting that low, then i guess you can forgo it (it would be near the bottom of the list anyways). but i bet that it would be nice for speedsters who are running at 150 speed.

really? i mean i know that on a good team it would be hard for everyone to get 15 1st quarter plays, but im pretty sure you could set up an AI to get certain players 15 first quarter plays. your WR got probably about 10 plays per quarter. giving him another 5 probably wouldnt be too tough. and even if you cant get the whole 15 plays, even if you were just able to get the 10 plays, that is still a 4% bonus to all attributes for the entire 2nd half.

and im pretty sure i get why WRs think streaky is good. its because there are other WRs on the field. so if you have a bad streaky day, its nbd... you can be a decoy for the other WRs. but if you do have a good streaky day, well then you are gonna do great. and on a possession receiver, that may not help your speed and such, but it will help you catch everything that comes your way via bonuses to catching, jumping, yes vision, carrying and all that, which will in turn eventually start to demoralize the CBs, which will then help speedsters (that last bit is a bit hypothetical as i havent watched a ton of great possession receivers in this game... everyone seems to want to be a speedster, but it makes sense to me ) i was just saying, in my last post, that i didnt understand your arguement. if you rephrased it, i would probably be able to get it, but for some reason that way you said it doesnt want to mesh with my brain.

and you were on valhalla last season? i see you are on hali, but im pretty sure valhalla was the best passing team run by the best builder in all of GLB fwiw. and i know he had talked about a WR on his team that at point point was 100+ catching, 70 speed... in WL that worked out well.
and i know its a lame name to drop, but im considered to be one of the better CB builders in the game (fwiw), so while i cant say i know a ton about WRs, i would like to think i know enough since i know how to counter them fairly well. and i'm affiliated with the top passing team in USPL haha. they are WL now though, so we'll see how it goes

Would you wait until you could put 15 points in streaky before you got it?

Originally posted by Redrover
Would you wait until you could put 15 points in streaky before you got it?

if you go streaky (as most if not all WRs should do, imo), then yeah, i would probably wait until you can just put 15 into it all at once. unless you really dont care about production in the meantime. in that case, it doesnt really matter