Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Warlock
Yeah it's all good, I like to discuss different angles, it helps add new perspectives to old contemplations.

As for the pancake SA, it's helpful. My FB led the league in pancakes back when he was a blocking build (308 cakes in a 3 season span) and still gets pancakes here and there when asked to block (his pancake SA is at 4 fwiw)... he also didn't always have 100+ strength (it was probably lower then the OP back then TBQH). Obviously the game has evolved a bit from those days, but still.

Originally posted by rsb014
The OP has 93+ Strength, 72+ Blocking and 5 in Pancake. His last 3 season pancake totals are 18, 27, and 16.
My FB has 76+ Strength, 73+ Blocking and 1 in Pancake. His last 3 season pancake totals are 80, 100, and 74.

Lots more Strength, significantly more Pancake, similar blocking and his player pretty consistently gets about 1/4 or fewer pancakes every season compared to mine. Some of that might be him splitting time with another FB on teams that run the ball less, but that doesn't begin to account for the total difference when you consider he should be pancaking players more often with his build.

Same issue, different position. My team has 3 Gs that were made at the same time and cap built. My Gs start at RG/LG and the 3rd rotates equally at both very frequently. They all get roughly the same number of plays as a result. My Friend insisted on getting Pancake AEQ for his guard, my players did not. here are their numbers the last 3 seasons:

His G - 117, 113, 98
My LG - 298, 291, 228
My RG - 211, 245, 186

Again, the guy with higher Pancake that is playing for the same team and getting the same number of snaps averages less than half as many pancakes as players without it. This time though they are the same level and same team.

Edit - His G currently has 6 Pancake. Strength, Blocking, Agility, Confidence and Stamina are all almost identical to my LG (the team's pancake leader) but he has less Vision.

Originally posted by rsb014
The OP has 93+ Strength, 72+ Blocking and 5 in Pancake. His last 3 season pancake totals are 18, 27, and 16.
My FB has 76+ Strength, 73+ Blocking and 1 in Pancake. His last 3 season pancake totals are 80, 100, and 74.

Lots more Strength, significantly more Pancake, similar blocking and his player pretty consistently gets about 1/4 or fewer pancakes every season compared to mine. Some of that might be him splitting time with another FB on teams that run the ball less, but that doesn't begin to account for the total difference when you consider he should be pancaking players more often with his build.

Same issue, different position. My team has 3 Gs that were made at the same time and cap built. My Gs start at RG/LG and the 3rd rotates equally at both very frequently. They all get roughly the same number of plays as a result. My Friend insisted on getting Pancake AEQ for his guard, my players did not. here are their numbers the last 3 seasons:

His G - 117, 113, 98
My LG - 298, 291, 228
My RG - 211, 245, 186

Again, the guy with higher Pancake that is playing for the same team and getting the same number of snaps averages less than half as many pancakes as players without it. This time though they are the same level and same team.

Edit - His G currently has 6 Pancake. Strength, Blocking, Agility, Confidence and Stamina are all almost identical to my LG (the team's pancake leader) but he has less Vision.

You can't just take raw numbers and make a very accurate conclusion TBPH. There's a ton of factors besides build that aren't being accounted for... remember the foundation of this game is based on contested rolls. When my FB led the league in pancakes, not a single other FB in the league had even half the number of pancakes. You have to put the numbers in perspective.

I don't know enough of the specifics to really comment on why a similar build is performing at a lower level (in terms of pancakes, but I'm sure there's an explanation. Hell, you can see the difference in numbers just from LG to RG. Either way, getting pancake AEQ shouldn't have a negative effect on getting pancakes (unless it is bugged or you make large sacrifices in your build to get it). The real question is what did he give up to get the pancake AEQ and is that sacrifice really a negative 50% to 300% difference in pancake numbers?

I mean I could cite my 308 pancakes in a 3 season span as an endorsement of the pancake SA... I had it at 5 during that span and players with much better attributes (except the pancake SA), had no where near my pancake numbers. Unfortunately, that would be out of context and thus lead to skewed assumptions. The only truly accurate way to test these things is by taking two separate builds and scrimmaging the same team multiple times... swapping FBs out each game, but leaving everything else identical. After a big enough sample, you can gather the data and make a somewhat accurate evaluation. Then again, the sim changes each season, so your findings would become irrelevent every 55 days or so.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
Here is my Level 49 FBs build (Closed)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1102213

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 89.8 (+14)
Speed: 89 (+19)
Agility: 77.8
Jumping: 8
Stamina: 36.04
Vision: 51.04
Confidence: 53.04 (+2) (AE)

Football Skills
Blocking: 75.8 (+2) (AE)
Catching: 18.04
Tackling: 17.04
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 33.8
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Blocking Abilities
Hands: 1
Lead Block: 5 (AE)
Spot Blitz: 5 (AE)
Strong Arm: 1
Pancake: 1

Offensive Abilities
Cover Up: 0
Sticky Hands: 0
Power Through: 0
Quick Cut: 0
Dive for Yardage: 0

Veteran Abilities
Distance Runner: 5
Downfield Blocker: 10
Outside Blocker: 13

Long story short, I used to split my eq between speed and agility. I finally gave up on this and moved my agility eq to strength and at that point I really noticed a major improvement in my FBs performance.

There was a time about 2 or 3 seasons ago when I really liked how high agility helped my FB get into position for blocks. The problem was that after about level 38 the team he is on got into AA and we face much higher leveled competition. The sim is kind of a pancake or be reverse pancaked battle when it comes to blocking now days. So I had to adjust.

I pushed my FBs agility to 77 this season in the hopes that it will reach 80 from level gains in a few seasons. I hope this is helpful.

Beautiful build... I'm not a fan of the spot blitz AEQ, but he's almost perfect other than that.

You've got our FBs to compare. Here are the Gs. Nothing personal but I was stunned when I saw how weird Pancakes are back around season 8 and started trying out builds without it so I pay a lot of attention to talk about the Pancake SA.

Vision and height are the big differences, but I just capped vision when I boosted this season. It had been down in the 20-30s the last 3 seasons so it wasn't always a 30 point gap. Other than that they were playing using identical tactics on the same team with heavy rotation as I mentioned.

His G: http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1262786

Ht/Wt: 6'0", 330lbs

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 104.09 (+23)
Speed: 49
Agility: 73.29
Jumping: 8
Stamina: 36.29
Vision: 19.29
Confidence: 48.09

Football Skills
Blocking: 85.09 (+8)
Catching: 8
Tackling: 18.29
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 8
Kicking: 9
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Pass Blocking Abilities
Pass Block: 0
Strong Arm: 0
Shock Block: 0
Foundation: 3
Absorb Pain: 0

Run Blocking Abilities
Run Block: 6
Get Low: 11
Hands: 3
Cut Block: 5
Pancake: 6

Veteran Abilities
Pass Blocker: 3
Stonewall: 15

My LG http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=1252059
Ht/Wt: 6'4", 319lbs

Experience, Skill Points, and Cash
Money: $84485
Daily Salary: $5019
Skill Points: 2
Training Points: 2
Bonus Tokens: 7
Veteran Points: 0
Next Level: 899/1000

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 104.09 (+23)
Speed: 50
Agility: 74.3
Jumping: 9
Stamina: 38.3
Vision: 48.3
Confidence: 48.09

Football Skills
Blocking: 86.09 (+6)
Catching: 8
Tackling: 18.3
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 9
Kicking: 8
Punting: 9

Special Abilities
Pass Blocking Abilities
Pass Block: 0
Strong Arm: 0
Shock Block: 0
Foundation: 0
Absorb Pain: 0

Run Blocking Abilities
Run Block: 5
Get Low: 7
Hands: 1
Cut Block: 1
Pancake: 1

Veteran Abilities
Pass Blocker: 3
Stonewall: 15

Originally posted by rsb014
You've got our FBs to compare. Here are the Gs. Nothing personal but I was stunned when I saw how weird Pancakes are back around season 8 and started trying out builds without it so I pay a lot of attention to talk about the Pancake SA.

Vision and height are the big differences, but I just capped vision when I boosted this season. It had been down in the 20-30s the last 3 seasons so it wasn't always a 30 point gap. Other than that they were playing using identical tactics on the same team with heavy rotation as I mentioned.

You can't objectively compare/contrast the two FBs, too many unknown factors.

As for the guards, you might be onto something about vision, but I don't think height has anything to do with it. Either way, I do not think vision is the only factor (or even the main factor)... I bet the rotation plays a considerable part in things. Regardless of all of that... having the pancake SA via AEQ cannot logically be a negative for executing pancake blocks. There's only one SA choice via AEQ that might be as good or better for getting pancakes (that's run block, because it gives a bonus to the blocking attribute, which indirectly helps get pancakes).

Taking the pancake SA via AEQ shouldn't hurt a player's build potential for achieving pancake blocks. It's nothing more than a multiplicative bonus... thus if you already get pancakes, it should increase the number you would normally get... the better your base chance, the higher that bonus should actually be. Similar concept to the break tackle bonuses. It's not like taking cut block SA over pancake SA makes you any better at executing pancake blocks...

Wow, I look away for a day or two and this thread takes off!
Thank you guys for your input, this discussion is very educational!!

Ok, so since I last posted I moved one more EQ item from strength, now 88, to speed, now 86 (noted in original post). I can not move any more over until I find something to replace the Pancake SA piece (+6 strength, +3 vision, Pancake). However, I don't know if I should be spending training points 2 at a time so I can look for a new piece or if I should just be training stamina/confidence on intense like Warlock said?!

I also reset the Blocking Back VA, took Outside Blocker to 15 and put 5 into Downfield Blocker (noted in original post).
I am concentrating on Agility and then Vision as suggested too!

Did I miss anything else???

Originally posted by Osco
Wow, I look away for a day or two and this thread takes off!
Thank you guys for your input, this discussion is very educational!!

Ok, so since I last posted I moved one more EQ item from strength, now 88, to speed, now 86 (noted in original post). I can not move any more over until I find something to replace the Pancake SA piece (+6 strength, +3 vision, Pancake). However, I don't know if I should be spending training points 2 at a time so I can look for a new piece or if I should just be training stamina/confidence on intense like Warlock said?!

I also reset the Blocking Back VA, took Outside Blocker to 15 and put 5 into Downfield Blocker (noted in original post).
I am concentrating on Agility and then Vision as suggested too!

Did I miss anything else???





Nope, you should be well on your way if you payed attention to the informative debate above. Warlock and AngryDragon both know their stuff and now you have a few different opinions and builds to work with.

By the way I will concede that Pancake has to have some benefit for you and that I have something of a grudge against because I felt like I wasted a lot of SP/AEQ on getting it for my first generation of players between seasons 2 and 8. Believe me, I've had this discussion more than a few with friends that still use the Pancake SA on my team and sometimes I crusade against it (have done so a couple of times in the O-line forum).

Here's some pro-Pancake evidence to balance it out a little instead of nothing but my normal anti-Pancake propaganda. Our team's blocking TE and one of our Cs both have 10 or more levels in the Pancake SA and both tend to put up pretty impressive Pancake numbers. The C with 10 in Pancake actually gets close to twice as many as mine does. My C that gets far fewer pancakes actually has 9 more points of Blocking and 20 more points of Speed. Other than that, all our stats are identical or within 1-2 points of each other. I can't deny that Pancake is likely making a big difference.

However, I suspect that the Pancake SA is a lot more useful vs heavy, high Strength, run-stuffing DT/NTs than it is vs all other defenders. Almost every other position/build appears to be pancaked frequently with just a decent build and no help from the SA.

Originally posted by rsb014
Nope, you should be well on your way if you payed attention to the informative debate above. Warlock and AngryDragon both know their stuff and now you have a few different opinions and builds to work with.

By the way I will concede that Pancake has to have some benefit for you and that I have something of a grudge against because I felt like I wasted a lot of SP/AEQ on getting it for my first generation of players between seasons 2 and 8. Believe me, I've had this discussion more than a few with friends that still use the Pancake SA on my team and sometimes I crusade against it (have done so a couple of times in the O-line forum).

Here's some pro-Pancake evidence to balance it out a little instead of nothing but my normal anti-Pancake propaganda. Our team's blocking TE and one of our Cs both have 10 or more levels in the Pancake SA and both tend to put up pretty impressive Pancake numbers. The C with 10 in Pancake actually gets close to twice as many as mine does. My C that gets far fewer pancakes actually has 9 more points of Blocking and 20 more points of Speed. Other than that, all our stats are identical or within 1-2 points of each other. I can't deny that Pancake is likely making a big difference.

However, I suspect that the Pancake SA is a lot more useful vs heavy, high Strength, run-stuffing DT/NTs than it is vs all other defenders. Almost every other position/build appears to be pancaked frequently with just a decent build and no help from the SA.


It's all good, TBPH, I personally wouldn't spend SP on the pancake SA... but in the case of some positions/builds, there's no real harm in taking it via AEQ. I think that a blocking TE or blocking FB, built to demoralize defenders can greatly benefit by getting dual pancake AEQ. High strength, high blocking, high agility, high pancake and 15 in showboat blocker is an effective build for blocking TEs/FBs (I would even be prone to add high vision to that list as well)... the downside is that you sacrifice some maneuverability to absolutely plow the fast yet weak defenders (and thus beat down their morale over the course of a game). It should be even more effective these days after the motivational speaker nerf.

Edit - Morale killers are the kind of RUN BLOCKING build I have never tried out, pass blocking isn't my thing.

Morale killers are the one kind of build I have never tried out. But then again I have consistently under-valued confidence for a long time and am just now starting to work on it seriously with my slow-built players.

I know my offensive players get demoralized badly as a result, but I've noticed that even when we get blown out by Super Slow Build or higher level teams (for example even after boosting, almost all our players were only level 38 but were stuck in uncapped last season and faced a lot of teams with level 45-65 players) the D-line and LBs typically doesn't lose that much morale even without much confidence. But then again, how often have we faced teams with a lot of demoralizing blockers? I would guess probably not very frequently at all.

Originally posted by rsb014
Edit - Morale killers are the kind of RUN BLOCKING build I have never tried out, pass blocking isn't my thing.

Morale killers are the one kind of build I have never tried out. But then again I have consistently under-valued confidence for a long time and am just now starting to work on it seriously with my slow-built players.

I know my offensive players get demoralized badly as a result, but I've noticed that even when we get blown out by Super Slow Build or higher level teams (for example even after boosting, almost all our players were only level 38 but were stuck in uncapped last season and faced a lot of teams with level 45-65 players) the D-line and LBs typically doesn't lose that much morale even without much confidence. But then again, how often have we faced teams with a lot of demoralizing blockers? I would guess probably not very frequently at all.

Well-built morale killing builds are pretty rare... they could be effective before, but never shined because motivational speaker made morale a joke. If you happen to land a morale killing blocking FB and TE, then toss in a tackle breaking monster power back... be assured, by the 4th quarter, with two somewhat equal teams, the defense that faces 20+ pancakes with showboat blocker (from the FB and TE alone) and a power back that breaks ~30 tackles... will be utterly demoralized (barring tremendous confidence or depth). God forbid if the rest of the offense has slow starter on top of that.

Level 43 FB

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 70.59
Speed: 92 (+30)
Agility: 68.59
Jumping: 8
Stamina: 35.59
Vision: 52.59
Confidence: 37.59

Football Skills
Blocking: 64.59
Catching: 27.59 (+2)
Tackling: 16.59
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 32.59
Kicking: 10
Punting: 9

Special Abilities
Blocking Abilities
Hands: 2
Lead Block: 7
Spot Blitz: 1
Strong Arm: 1
Pancake: 1

Offensive Abilities
Cover Up: 0
Sticky Hands: 0
Power Through: 0
Quick Cut: 0
Dive for Yardage: 0

Veteran Abilities
Downfield Blocker: 10
Outside Blocker: 14

He has a combo back (90/92 STR/SPD) and a elusive back (112/75 SPD/AGL) to block for.

Thoughts on what he should aim for?

Blocking to 68+, Agility to 73+, Strength to 73+ in whatever order you choose would be my suggestion, dviss1.

Edit - Strength to 77 eventually may not be a bad idea.