Warrior General Games

Although we seem to disagree about how to build cbs, can we all agree to use proper punctuation and capitalization from now on?

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
I don't prescribe to everything he says. I don't do that for anyone. I just notice that oftentimes his advice doesn't lead a person in the wrong direction... I can't say that for everyone. Still hold by that. There's no reason to bring a person's "credibility" into an argument about how much speed you should have. That's the reason I got involved in the first place. To be honest, I'd rather not be spilling the exact details about how I make every one of my players all over forums every player in the game can see.

How much speed do I like at career finality?
That depends entirely on what VAs and SAs a player has.
Is first step, closing speed or ball hawk in your build? Then you need less speed. How does your defense work? Cover 1 or 2? Are both sides really covered on streak routes with a slower guy?
I'm personally more into goading offenses into passing to the guy I cover then swatting that shit away so I can waste their down.
95 is reasonable for a build like that I think.
I'm biased though because my SS is on the same team as my CB and my SS is largely shutdown oriented, playing strong side where my #2 CB is being shutdown. If the guy gets past my CB, which he doesn't, he has to deal with my SS and that's not a good thing for him.

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
Although we seem to disagree about how to build cbs, can we all agree to use proper punctuation and capitalization from now on?

I'll try, but I am from Tennessee

Daddy Warbuck most of what you say is rational and agreeable, im a bit confused on where you are entirely with this argument with your last post being almost neutral. It does depend on the defense your on, and which role you play. Personally i feel that CB1 and CB2 are different positions, and CB3 is most definitely a different position. CB1 requires more confidence, man to man skills (yes this could mean more speed than normal) and CB2 is more like a possession/playmaking position (more agility, vision, catching, jumping). CB3 can be used a variety of different ways, all depends on who he's covering and what the defensive coordinator wants to use him as.

If there is a "best build" how would it be proven? awards? what award would be worth more than another? tackle to PD ratio? was he good in run support? interceptions? interceptions for TDs? level of competition? it all is in the eye of the beholder, and stats are sometimes more misleading then helping in judgment.

There is no best in my opinion, because the entire essence of the game is creating mismatches.
I believe there's no way to avoid experiencing a mismatch at some point considering even playing field.
Sure, if every receiver had a standard 100 speed 70 agility 70 catching 50 vision 40 jumping or something, you could plan the "perfect build" to a T, but the point is not everyone will build that receiver so while your focus may be guarding him a guy with 70 speed 70 agility but 90 catching and 60 vision might just screw you over even while closely covered.

Originally posted by wormser1971
Originally posted by Longhornfan1024

I thought wormser was agreeing with me. If you want rob, dh, and Granted in here I can ask them to come post their thoughts on the subject. It will essentially be word for word what I have already said, though.

Yup... pretty sure that the point here was when is it too much speed... Underdogs point was that it is never too much.... he taughted his builds, I showed a game where his build gave up 1/4th of the passing yards for that game. His philosophy on speed is incorrect. Take his advice if you want, but stay on subject Worker DW and mmuhr. The subject here is speed... what is your opinion, or do you not have one. Call me what you will, I believe that a player should be built according to what his job will be, not based on advice from someone who's theories are suspect imo... that's why I said a few pages ago, I will never take advice from UD. Make speed=agility makes sense and that is certainly advice I will take!

What are you talking about? I set my tactics to bate the quarterback to throw his way. and he did. 10 times for 70 yards. *twirls fingers.

to wormsers...

your last few posts seem sensible, and so i dont have beef with you anymore. the main reason i was... i guess "lashing out" is the best term i can think of atm (3:30 in the morning here) is because you were kind of calling out UD. and while i dont really agree with him 100%, not do i agree with longhorns 100%. i would be in the middle and then off in my own direction a bit too. i agree with UD that the more speed the better, but at the cost of other attributes, you really have to start question when enough is enough. and i do think high speed (100+) can work if you have enough CD and FS. and then i agree with longhorn that ultimately a pretty even speed/agility (+-10) is going to net the best results given CD and FS are thrown out the window. so a balanced is good, and so is speedster. just with speedster you need more SAs to compliment the build. and then i go off in my own direction in thinking that vision is really the most important attribute, and i currently have a lvl 13 slow build CB with 68 raw vision and speed/agility both at about 30, that im using to try to see if im right.

but as for your last post, again, i think the higher the speed the better, but you have to weigh the costs. if the cost is agility, no big loss. just pump some FS and CD and youre good. if its at the cost of other attributes, then you had best put a block on the speed. either way works, really its just personal preference. the high CD/FS makes up for lower agility. and again, please stop trying to belie UD. you probably weren't around when he released his big thread on catching, but he did a lot of research with that. his theories seem pretty reliable to me.

So basically, it comes down to this:
What is the most effective, or in a sense corrective SA as well as VA for a CB?
To elaborate:
If superior vision lends more to vision checks and related pursuits than
first step lends to speed and related pursuits or
change direction lends to agility and related pursuits or
swat ball lends to deflections and related pursuits or
so on and so on with each SA and VA

then the ideal is to invest in that which is the most effective
and build around it in a way that will see your build having the most strength.

I don't have nearly enough experience with Cbs to tell you which SA or VA is THE most effective at getting what it intends to do done, so I can't tell you how much speed you need.
For all I know, first step is the absolute best thing a CB can have. My instinct tells me it's not, but that doesn't help.
Say it's something like superior vision. Then you'd still demand high speed, agility, jumping, catching, etc to consolidate the build into most efficient.

So until you know what the best cheap boost is (relative to what you'd need to invest in attributes without it) you can't resolutely say what values the attributes should have.

And all of this is irrelevant if you simply don't want to always cover your guy like glue (which I can't see a CB desiring tbh), or if you don't want to build toward deflections, or ints, or forcing fumbles, or any other mechanism for which the position is capable.

In the end it comes down to doing what you want, and trying to be the most efficient you can about it.

And I think that most of the players I've seen could be covered by a 100 speed 70 agility build if that build had a good amount of change direction and maybe a bit of first step. Essentially that's what the SAs are there for - compensating for a lack of attributes. That's how I see it.