Warrior General Games

Wasn't this in the SA description?

Originally posted by
This player is very hard to push backward when run blocking. The Wall skill gives him a bonus to standing his ground when blockers try to push him back.

This skill can help keep holes from opening up in the line, making rushing difficult.

Though, re-reading the new information in tpat's thread, I found something interesting.

Originally posted by
Strong Base (DT/DE): This ability allows the D-lineman to use his Strength to push a blocker backwards and even totally out of his way. This ability works best with a D-lineman who has very high Strength (i.e. one who is much stronger than his opponent). From Bort: [It activates] only [when] pass blocking. It cuts the max push back vector the opponent gets when he wins rolls, and now it actually also protects against stuns.

Typo somewhere?

That's Strong Base...

Originally posted by Kayoh
That's Strong Base...

Yeah, I know. I thought it was obvious. I brought it up because the key focal point of this thread revolves around tpat's post, and that bit of information is also contained within that same post. You can interpret it however you like. I thought it was something interesting that people may have overlooked, as wall and strong base tend to go hand-in-hand when people discuss non-standard SAs for pass rushing D-Linemen.

I've said this before and it's not just me. DEs that up-ed their Wall SA alone has notice increase in sacks when situations are equal. And G33 is right, Wall and Strong Base works hand-in-hand. Apparently Wall doesn't just activate on rushing plays, but also on pass-rush. Don't know if Bort's going to take that away or he has purposely designed it that way.

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
I've said this before and it's not just me. DEs that up-ed their Wall SA alone has notice increase in sacks when situations are equal. And G33 is right, Wall and Strong Base works hand-in-hand. Apparently Wall doesn't just activate on rushing plays, but also on pass-rush. Don't know if Bort's going to take that away or he has purposely designed it that way.

WHat is wrong with you? seriously. WALL does NOT help on passing plays. here's the thread again read it carefully. scroll down to wall and read this insert I put in there explaining it clearly. I also Bolded out where it says wall is only active on RUNNING plays

Originally posted by tpaterniti
I have gotten Bort to answer several questions about this and he looked this over and determined that it was right, or at least right enough to be worthy of posting. Enjoy!

What is the stun effect, how does it work, and how does it interact with the existing D-lineman/O-lineman interaction?

OK Here is Bort's explanation. Much more clear. Thanks Bort!

It's pretty simple:

Pass block:

- guys collide
- blocker rolls block ability roll vs defender shed block roll
- winner gets to decide what happens next
- if blocker wins, he gets to shove the defender back based on a push back roll, modified by the defender's SA's and stats
> Also, check for pancake
> Check for shock block ability
- if defender wins, he gets to shove the blocker back based on his push back roll, modified by blocker's SA's and stats
> Also check for rev-pancake
> Check for stun ability
- Repeat over and over

Run block:
- guys collide
- blocker rolls "engage" roll vs defender shed roll.
> An auto pancake or whiff and fall (if defender wins) can happen here.
- blocker usually wins that first engage roll.
- each tick, we do a "fight" check:
> roll hold block vs shed block.
> winner determines what happens.
> if blocker wins, he holds on and gets to push the defender back and rotate his body to be in the way.
> if defender wins, he either breaks the block if he wins by enough, or gets to push the blocker back and try to do a swim move
> winner also gets to make a pancake check, which auto breaks the block and the other guy falls down.

Also from bort:

Originally posted by Bort

Balance comes in with the pancake checks. Even if you don't get a full pancake, you can push the other guy off balance which makes it easier to deal with him and get a pancake on the next tick, assuming he doesn't win the rolls and regain his balance.

D rush style only applies to pass rushing, btw. That's why it's called pass rush style. Vs run blocks it doesn't do anything different.

What does the stun look like? Does the stunned player’s dot shrink?

Here are two replays of the stun effect (watch the LDE/ROT). The dot does not shrink, it just freezes for about a tick.

http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=952&pbp_id=219956
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=952&pbp_id=219795

The effect is usually very subtle, yet effective.

How does the stun effect interact with current D-line SAs?

This is very important, don't miss this part--------------->Active on rushing plays only and thus unaffected by the new stun effect:

*Important Note: Once an offensive player catches a pass or once a QB begins to scramble, the sim treats the play at that point like a rushing play. So once a WR catches a pass, the play switches to a rushing play until the end of it and so you can Monster Hit him, and the same goes for a QB if he starts to scramble and gets past the line of scrimmage. When I say that something is not active on a passing play, it means that you cannot use it before a pass is caught, or on the QB when he is behind the line of scrimmage. In other words, you cannot Monster Hit the QB when you sack him. This is what the Big Sack SA does. Some of the SAs like Wall and Break Through only activate when the sim reads that run blocking is occurring. Once a pass is caught, blockers downfield immediately begin run blocking so the pass rusher/blocker interaction switches at that point from #1 above (the pass rushing dynamic with the stun and repel effect) to #2 above (the run blocking dynamic without either the stun or the repel effect and with the frequent roll recalculation). Although a screen is a pass, my guess is that the LOT and WR2 run block the entire way, whereas everyone else pass blocks until the WR catches the ball and then they switch to run blocking. Same for HB screens. The FB (for Normal I and Strong I), RG, ROT, and TE run block immediately (maybe the WR2 also). Everyone else on the offense pass blocks until the HB catches the ball, and then switch immediately to run blocking.

Big Hit (DT/SS) This ability, like Snarl, also allows the D-lineman to reduce the ball carrier’s morale each time he tackles him. This ability works a little better than Snarl at reducing morale and also carries with it the chance of forcing a fumble. This ability is only active on rushing plays.

Break Through (DT): This ability increases the D-lineman’s ability to break through double-teams. This ability works best on D-linemen with very high Strength and Agility. It provides a bonus to each attribute and also a chance to break two blocks simultaneously whereas you would normally have to break one block, then the next one. This ability is only active on rushing plays.

Monster Hit (DE/LB/SS): This works just like Big Hit, but is more effective at reducing morale and more likely to force a fumble. It only activates on rushing plays.

Snarl (DT/LB) = Growl (SS): This ability allows the D-lineman to reduce the ball carrier’s morale each time he tackles him. This ability is only active on rushing plays.

Wall (DT/DE): This ability prevents a D-lineman from being pushed backwards on rushing plays and works best when the D-lineman has very high Strength. This ability adds a bonus to the D-lineman’s Strength. It is only active on rushing plays.

-------->Active on passing plays (either passing only or both rushing and passing plays) and thus possibly affected by the new stun effect:<------------ this refers to everything under it. NOT WALL

Big Sack (DT/DE/LB): This ability increases the chance that the QB will fumble when a D-lineman sacks him. It also allows the D-lineman to reduce the QB’s morale each time he sacks him. This ability only activates on passing plays. Because it happens after a block is broken, it has no affect on the actual breaking of the block and thus is not impacted by the new stun effect.

Blitz (CB): This ability provides a boost to Speed and Agility when the player is blitzing. This only activates when the sim reads that a player is blitzing (either as a primary assignment or if his last option in the DPC is to blitz and his first assignments are not met - say, because he is assigned to cover the HB but the HB stays in to pass block) and on pass plays. This is because the sim defines blitzing as a player trying to get to the QB on a passing play.

Shed Block (DT/DE/LB): This ability helps D-linemen break blocks by adding a bonus to the Shed Block Roll. The more Shed Block you add, the bigger the bonus and the more often it activates. Higher Shed Block Rolls mean more and longer stuns. This activates on both rushing and passing plays.

Strong Base (DT/DE): This ability allows the D-lineman to use his Strength to push a blocker backwards and even totally out of his way. This ability works best with a D-lineman who has very high Strength (i.e. one who is much stronger than his opponent). From Bort: [It activates] only [when] pass blocking. It cuts the max push back vector the opponent gets when he wins rolls, and now it actually also protects against stuns.

Heavyweight VA: This VA does not help you break a block. It simply provides a bonus to making the blocker fall down when the D-lineman successfully breaks a block. From Bort: Heavyweight and the stun do not go hand in hand. Heavyweight only comes into play when checking on a pancake. If you don't pancake the guy, you might have a chance to stun him because you still won your blocking roll, but heavyweight doesn't do anything there. Back to me: So it looks like this only activates on run plays when you reverse pancake a blocker or on the reverse pancake roll in pass blocking, which seems to happen before the stun roll.

What about speed? Does this change handicap speed rushers?

Not at all. In fact, with the defensive play creator, Speed DEs especially are seeing a resurgence. Think of Strength and Agility as attributes that help you break blocks, whereas Speed helps you avoid them altogether. Agility helps with Speed also, as does the Change Direction (= Quick Cut) SA by simply reducing the amount of Speed you would normally lose while changing direction. Lining your DEs out wide will result in them frequently getting to the QB without the OT engaging them at all, provided your DE has enough Speed and can accelerate quickly enough form a dead stop.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=473884&pbp_id=11517659

OTs can mitigate this by having enough Vision, Speed, and Agility themselves.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=473884&pbp_id=11516918

Of course this alignment would leave the defense susceptible to runs (if the formation has a HB) or to QB scrambles up the middle (sometimes scrambles to pass, not just scrambles to run).

Does this impact LBs and DBs who are blitzing?

If they engage a blocker, yes. This is an addition to the fundamental way that blitzers and blockers interact with each other, regardless of who is doing the blitzing or the blocking.

Why was the stun effect implemented and how will it improve pass rushing?

One problem Bort noticed was that D-linemen were breaking blocks and pushing O-linemen around all the time. However, often, once a D-lineman had pushed the O-lineman backwards, that same O-lineman would be right there to immediately reblock him. This is what would often lead to the replays of D-linemen bouncing off of O-linemen, but never able to get past them. Other times, a D-lineman would break a block, but the O-lineman would often have time to reset his feet and block the D-lineman from a different angle. This is what would sometimes lead to the replays where O-linemen appear to be holding, or where the D-lineman can never seem to get the radius he needs to go around the O-lineman and totally break free of him. By adding a shock effect, the D-lineman can actually benefit from the broken block the way he was meant to because the shock removes the O-lineman’s opportunity to immediately re-engage the D-lineman.

Why did this change take so long to implement?

Bort did tests on his dev box where the shock effect lasted a long time and where it happened every play and sacks were happening literally every play. This convinced him of the need to get the effect just right. There have been a lot o complaints about D-linemen’s ineffectiveness, but if they suddenly were getting so many sacks that it made a huge imbalance the other way, while owners of D-linemen would be happy, this would ultimately be bad for the game.

What about blocking?

Blocking applies to both run and pass blocking, and goes into determining the rolls you get when deciding who is winning the blocking battle; i.e. who gets the chance to push the other guy, or the chance to pancake, etc. The better your blocking, the better chance you have to keep winning the battle. It also increases the radius from which you can block a player by a little.

lol

Glad to see your wisdom is being appreciated elsewhere Underdog

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2675246&page=last#22853923

"Dear Lord - can we get a Mod to clean up all the Underdog garbage (and give him a vacation too) -


It's amazing that we had more or less reasonable discussion for 800 posts - and then 1 guy - who apparently just didn't get enough attention from Mommy today - comes in and shits all over it."

LOL

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
Glad to see your wisdom is being appreciated elsewhere Underdog

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2675246&page=last#22853923



Stay on topic. WALL doesn't help get sacks.

That was me being bored and fucking with people. Kinda like I fuck with you.

but you will try to deflect attention to yourself or change the subject, no matter how wrong you're proven eh?

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
Glad to see your wisdom is being appreciated elsewhere Underdog

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2675246&page=last#22853923

"Dear Lord - can we get a Mod to clean up all the Underdog garbage (and give him a vacation too) -


It's amazing that we had more or less reasonable discussion for 800 posts - and then 1 guy - who apparently just didn't get enough attention from Mommy today - comes in and shits all over it."

LOL



Cool doesn't change the fact you're a moron.

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
Glad to see your wisdom is being appreciated elsewhere Underdog

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2675246&page=last#22853923

"Dear Lord - can we get a Mod to clean up all the Underdog garbage (and give him a vacation too) -


It's amazing that we had more or less reasonable discussion for 800 posts - and then 1 guy - who apparently just didn't get enough attention from Mommy today - comes in and shits all over it."

LOL



What does that have to do with you giving terrible advice to DE owners everywhere?

You should write a formal apology for all of the forums to see, because you've spread that bullshit everywhere.

You know how many young, unknowing DE owners took your advice and ran with it? And now, since DEs are about to *finally* get fixed, they will be wondering why they're the only ones still not getting sacks, while they continue to work Wall up to 11.

If you need any advice on how to word your apology letter, just let me know, I would be more than willing to help you out. In fact, I think all of us that frequent the DE Position Talk forum would be willing.

So Strong Base, at DT pass rushing SA, only activates on rushing plays?

Originally posted by wlarson
So Strong Base, at DT pass rushing SA, only activates on rushing plays?

No, it works against passing plays.

Originally posted by Motiak
Originally posted by wlarson

So Strong Base, at DT pass rushing SA, only activates on rushing plays?

No, it works against passing plays.

That's what I thought too. I don't think these pseudo official FAQs done by mods are particularly helpful. I appreciate the effort that goes into them, but Bort has repeatedly said that SAs do what they say they do. Anything beyond that is guesswork and likely inaccurate.

Well, if you check the thread, they editted it and it says it works against pass plays.