Originally posted by southlight
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Unless there's an FS in the way, which SHOULD be the case if your team gameplanned properly and your FS has a decent build. As in, you didn't get pump faked and you don't get juked by a speedy receiver, we get to OttawaShane's response in my thread about FS builds as a whole:
"when I first read your stuff about speed, I questioned your logic on speed - but then an important point came to mind - in C1 which is what my teams play, my FS is never having to catch a guy from behind - he needs lots of speed, but mid-80s is actually sufficient for my league which is mainly L35-40 players, as long as the vision and agility are there."
First: if your DC can actually read the opponents offense that well, the opponents OC should be fired. Don't know about US Pro, but in SA Pro they play unpredictable out of the very same formation and in the very same situations. So if they are strong on the run, you just can't run cover 2 or 3 plays to add additional deep help all the time. Mid 80s is really a nice looking number, but when it counts it won't be enough. You'll just never close up to a guy that's 15 yards towards the sideline when he's got 25 more speed.
Originally posted by southlight
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Even with Cover 1, there're more important things than Speed, because with sufficient Vision you'll break toward the intended receiver faster (and I believe agility/vision makes you backpedal faster and maintain better positioning), with sufficient Closing Speed you'll have more than enough acceleration and top speed to make it to most WRs assuming you didn't take a crappy angle (Vision), and then it's up to agility and vision to ensure you don't get juked, then strength and tackle to bring him down.
That doesn't match with what I notice on my guy. There are very rare plays where the FS breaks towards the WR before the ball is thrown, but usually the first possible time a FS can repath is the moment the ball is passed. On the other hand, I don't know what vision you are talking. 80? 90? 100? I got my guy to only 70 and I'm pretty statisfied with his reaction time.
Originally posted by southlight
...
EDIT:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=285851&pbp_id=12471070 (that's what a safety is for i.m.h.o.)
Aside from the closing speed kicking in I don't think you ever hit max speed on that play. Two things that make me go "hmm" about that play: 1) you got pump faked 2) you never actually got in a footrace with the WR, because he never got ahead of you. Again, you never hit max speed, I don't know if he did, and from that play alone I can't tell if you're actually even faster than the WR. It reminds me a lot of this play:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=210268&pbp_id=6088454
The difference is that my player made two really bad vision checks which resulted in me 1) making the decision to play medium field against the TE (while I was backpedaling for an instant I slow down and take a step forward before resuming the backpedal), I would surmise failing the vision check on the receiver's deep route also played into this, and then 2) biting HARD on the pump fake, which obliterated any chance of me being in proper Cover 1 position.
You're sure you know what you're talking about? I don't want to offend you, but I know for sure there's no closing speed involved in the first replay and I strongly doubt in both replays that the FS fell for a pump fake. And in GLB it doesn't take 15 yards to reach top speed.
Have you ever noticed how FS plays are coded? The FS won't always play the deepest man (neither in cover 1 nor 2) or even stay deeper than the deepest man, but is coded to "stay in the middle" on certain plays - this resulting in him letting a deep going WR slip by and watching another guy underneath. Just like your FS in the second replay: he's staying almost perfectly in the middle of the deep weakside WR and the TE as both guys are becoming FS assignments for some reason (I'd say, the TE is deep enough to trigger the "2 man deep, stay in the middle" routine). Another example: in a lot of cover 2 plays, you will see the FS playing about 2-5 yards inside the WR at about the same yard line. I reported some of those pathing issues in a post a while ago (was named "FS pathing issues" or so... in the bugs forum).
This plays naturally result in a footrace as soon as the ball is thrown; the WR has to catch the ball first (this slowing him down a bit), but then it's WRs acceleration and top-speed vs. FS going full speed.
Originally posted by southlight
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EDIT2:
I mean seriously,
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=124758&playoffs=0
He just stuck 15 in the Track Star vet, which gives him like 126 speed. Not to mention with play-hard bonus that ends up with him having like 140 speed.
What would be your rationale for entering an arms race with players like that?
At what point do you draw the line?
I'm not saying having high speed is bad, especially because I'll be the first to say build the FS to suit your team's defensive setup, but seriously, attempting to mass speed to run devoted speed receivers from behind is an exercise in futility, IMO.
Good example. First, this players biggest problem is his stamina (34 ???). So he's at like 70 in-game energy after a few snaps, this cutting his speed down to about 105 (don't count "hard" bonus, for everyone is playing on hard). At this point, he needs 20-25 yards to get open - and most plays just don't support such a long pass distance (the QB will look for another guy that reached his "reception point").
Still: In order to prevent a guy like Colon Grifter from taking off, you just need a defender (either CB or FS) to stay at least close for a while. And sorry, 85 speed vs. 120 won't do that job. So you just got to field a 100+ speed guy (and maybe even play him on medium or far coverage distance) to cover that WR. Most offensive coordinators don't have the balls to call those streak and deep post/corner routes and rely on them, but if it's obvious that your secondary is beaten within 15 yards... they will come up with that idea.
So yes, I aim for 95-105 speed, 15 track star and some SA Closing Speed and First Step (along with proper stamina). I don't mind to loose a sprint battle then, but at least it's not reliable to call deep passes vs. my team then.
(Of course, decent agility and vision are needed too, but I'd settle for 70 in both.)
...
Unless there's an FS in the way, which SHOULD be the case if your team gameplanned properly and your FS has a decent build. As in, you didn't get pump faked and you don't get juked by a speedy receiver, we get to OttawaShane's response in my thread about FS builds as a whole:
"when I first read your stuff about speed, I questioned your logic on speed - but then an important point came to mind - in C1 which is what my teams play, my FS is never having to catch a guy from behind - he needs lots of speed, but mid-80s is actually sufficient for my league which is mainly L35-40 players, as long as the vision and agility are there."
First: if your DC can actually read the opponents offense that well, the opponents OC should be fired. Don't know about US Pro, but in SA Pro they play unpredictable out of the very same formation and in the very same situations. So if they are strong on the run, you just can't run cover 2 or 3 plays to add additional deep help all the time. Mid 80s is really a nice looking number, but when it counts it won't be enough. You'll just never close up to a guy that's 15 yards towards the sideline when he's got 25 more speed.
Originally posted by southlight
...
Even with Cover 1, there're more important things than Speed, because with sufficient Vision you'll break toward the intended receiver faster (and I believe agility/vision makes you backpedal faster and maintain better positioning), with sufficient Closing Speed you'll have more than enough acceleration and top speed to make it to most WRs assuming you didn't take a crappy angle (Vision), and then it's up to agility and vision to ensure you don't get juked, then strength and tackle to bring him down.
That doesn't match with what I notice on my guy. There are very rare plays where the FS breaks towards the WR before the ball is thrown, but usually the first possible time a FS can repath is the moment the ball is passed. On the other hand, I don't know what vision you are talking. 80? 90? 100? I got my guy to only 70 and I'm pretty statisfied with his reaction time.
Originally posted by southlight
...
EDIT:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=285851&pbp_id=12471070 (that's what a safety is for i.m.h.o.)
Aside from the closing speed kicking in I don't think you ever hit max speed on that play. Two things that make me go "hmm" about that play: 1) you got pump faked 2) you never actually got in a footrace with the WR, because he never got ahead of you. Again, you never hit max speed, I don't know if he did, and from that play alone I can't tell if you're actually even faster than the WR. It reminds me a lot of this play:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=210268&pbp_id=6088454
The difference is that my player made two really bad vision checks which resulted in me 1) making the decision to play medium field against the TE (while I was backpedaling for an instant I slow down and take a step forward before resuming the backpedal), I would surmise failing the vision check on the receiver's deep route also played into this, and then 2) biting HARD on the pump fake, which obliterated any chance of me being in proper Cover 1 position.
You're sure you know what you're talking about? I don't want to offend you, but I know for sure there's no closing speed involved in the first replay and I strongly doubt in both replays that the FS fell for a pump fake. And in GLB it doesn't take 15 yards to reach top speed.
Have you ever noticed how FS plays are coded? The FS won't always play the deepest man (neither in cover 1 nor 2) or even stay deeper than the deepest man, but is coded to "stay in the middle" on certain plays - this resulting in him letting a deep going WR slip by and watching another guy underneath. Just like your FS in the second replay: he's staying almost perfectly in the middle of the deep weakside WR and the TE as both guys are becoming FS assignments for some reason (I'd say, the TE is deep enough to trigger the "2 man deep, stay in the middle" routine). Another example: in a lot of cover 2 plays, you will see the FS playing about 2-5 yards inside the WR at about the same yard line. I reported some of those pathing issues in a post a while ago (was named "FS pathing issues" or so... in the bugs forum).
This plays naturally result in a footrace as soon as the ball is thrown; the WR has to catch the ball first (this slowing him down a bit), but then it's WRs acceleration and top-speed vs. FS going full speed.
Originally posted by southlight
...
EDIT2:
I mean seriously,
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=124758&playoffs=0
He just stuck 15 in the Track Star vet, which gives him like 126 speed. Not to mention with play-hard bonus that ends up with him having like 140 speed.
What would be your rationale for entering an arms race with players like that?
At what point do you draw the line?
I'm not saying having high speed is bad, especially because I'll be the first to say build the FS to suit your team's defensive setup, but seriously, attempting to mass speed to run devoted speed receivers from behind is an exercise in futility, IMO.
Good example. First, this players biggest problem is his stamina (34 ???). So he's at like 70 in-game energy after a few snaps, this cutting his speed down to about 105 (don't count "hard" bonus, for everyone is playing on hard). At this point, he needs 20-25 yards to get open - and most plays just don't support such a long pass distance (the QB will look for another guy that reached his "reception point").
Still: In order to prevent a guy like Colon Grifter from taking off, you just need a defender (either CB or FS) to stay at least close for a while. And sorry, 85 speed vs. 120 won't do that job. So you just got to field a 100+ speed guy (and maybe even play him on medium or far coverage distance) to cover that WR. Most offensive coordinators don't have the balls to call those streak and deep post/corner routes and rely on them, but if it's obvious that your secondary is beaten within 15 yards... they will come up with that idea.
So yes, I aim for 95-105 speed, 15 track star and some SA Closing Speed and First Step (along with proper stamina). I don't mind to loose a sprint battle then, but at least it's not reliable to call deep passes vs. my team then.
(Of course, decent agility and vision are needed too, but I'd settle for 70 in both.)
