Warrior General Games

So anyway, I was recently conducting research on the effect of what we've entitled "super slow building" in another thread (http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=981670&page=1)
There was commentary that since a WR requires such diverse stat distribution, slow building in the manner of not playing games and letting your training gain you your daily xp would not be as beneficial. Reference this thread for a typical "slow-build" WR( http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=995333 ) One season in, two soft caps reached and one on the way by level 15 (also decent stamina).

The following is the (incomplete) result of my research, formatted in a way I figured would be readable in 'guide' form (it is incomplete due to reading the new updates midway through, thus rendering such information useless. However, I don't want it to go completely to waste, so I will post it here simply to alleviate some of my aggravation with the changes):

We'll start with a character template.

Wide Receiver:
Highest Roll (major)– 19
| Minor 20 | Filler 48-60 | Major 69-81 (13.5 avg., 3*13, 3*14)

Let's assume our goal here is to soft cap three attributes by level 13 - to see if this is achievable, and see at what rate it'll occur. To do this most effectively, we will want three above average numbers in those three attributes, fourteen is the logical answer since it's just above average and won't make our other major attributes suffer. The build would look like this ideally:

Originally posted by

Majors:
speed: 14
agility: 14
jumping: 13
stamina: 13
vision: 13
catching: 14

Minors:
confidence: 10
carrying: 10

Filler:
strength: 8
blocking: 8
tackling: 8
throwing: 8
kicking: 8
punting: 8

Speed, agility and catching are the attributes in our example - undoubtedly valuable for the wide receiver position.

Starting with speed, the chart will work as follows:
Days of training at current level---Current attribute level--Amount that will be added to the skill by training that day---(Unspent skill points)

Also note that these values are based on training on intense.
Information inside the quotes is the process leading to the explanation outside of the quotes. For readability, only look at what is OUTSIDE of the quotes - it will make more sense.
Originally posted by Level 1
$2000 cumulative expense, 10 days of training
10 days training for 100 xp=1000xp

1--14.00-.49--(15)
2--14.49-.48--(15)
3--14.97-.47--(15)
4--15.44-.46--(15)
5--15.90-.45--(15)
6--16.35-.45--(15)
7--16.80-.44--(15)
8--17.24-.44--(15)
9--17.68-.43--(15)
10-18.11-.42--(15)

Level 2 achieved, .33 distributed to all major stats, .5 to minors.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 18.86
agility: 14.33
jumping: 13.33
stamina: 13.33
vision: 13.33
catching: 14.33
confidence: 10.5
carrying: 10.5

Originally posted by Level 2
$4400, 11 days of training
11 days training for 96 xp=1056xp

1--18.86-.40--(20)
2--19.26-.40--(20)
3--19.66-.40--(20)
4--20.06-.39--(20)
5--20.45-.38--(20)
6--20.83-.38--(20)
7--21.21-.37--(20)
8--21.58-.37--(20)
9--21.95-.36--(20)
10-22.31-.36--(20)
11-22.67-.35--(20)


Level 3 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 48.35 (23.35+25, soft cap, points are all distributed into speed)
agility: 14.66
jumping: 13.66
stamina: 13.66
vision: 13.66
catching: 14.66
confidence: 11
carrying: 11

Originally posted by Level 3
$6600, 11 days of training
Remainder 56 + (11 days training for 91 xp)=1057xp

Now onto agility.

1--14.66-.48--(0)
2--15.14-.47--(0)
3--15.61-.46--(0)
4--16.07-.45--(0)
5--16.52-.45--(0)
6--16.97-.44--(0)
7--17.41-.43--(0)
8--17.84-.43--(0)
9--18.27-.42--(0)
10-18.69-.41--(0)
11-19.10-.40--(0)

Level 4 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 48.68
agility: 19.83
jumping: 13.99
stamina: 13.99
vision: 13.99
catching: 14.99
confidence: 11.5
carrying: 11.5

Originally posted by Level 4
$6400, 11 days of training(8 during season 1, 3 during season 2)
Remainder 57 + (11 days training for 87 xp)=1014xp

1--19.83-.40--(5)
2--20.23-.39--(5)
3--20.62-.38--(5)
4--21.00-.37--(5)
5--21.37-.37--(5)
6--21.74-.37--(5)
7--22.11-.36--(5)
8--22.47-.35--(5)

Accumulated training costs= $19400
-$2500 player starting cash= $16900
+$2000 lvl. 1 equipment costs= $18900 minimum requirement for sallary during season 1;
$2400 fee carries over to season 2 (3 days of L4 training);
Season 2 Begins.

Originally posted by remainder of level 4
9--22.82-.35--(5)
10-23.17-.34--(5)
11-23.51-.34--(5)

Level 5 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 49.01
agility: 24.18
jumping: 14.32
stamina: 14.32
vision: 14.32
catching: 15.32
confidence: 12
carrying: 12

Originally posted by Level 5
$13000, 13 days of training
Remainder 14 + (13 days training for 82 xp)=1080xp

1--24.18-.33--(10)
2--24.51-.33--(10)
3--24.84-.33--(10)
4--25.17-.32--(10)
5--25.49-.31--(10)
6--25.80-.31--(10)
7--26.11-.30--(10)
8--26.41-.30--(10)
9--26.71-.30--(10)
10-27.01-.29--(10)
11-27.30-.29--(10)

Due to calculations that will not be included, I have deduced that at this rate it is impossible to reach the soft cap for agility until level 7, therefor it is unwise to continue training the attribute beyond this point (27.59) because the training would go to better use toward alternate (lower) attributes. The reason we stop at 27.59 instead of 28, is that there are two levels to gain before 7, meaning .66 worth of attributes will be distributed into agility (putting it at 28.25, 20 away from soft cap, which will be attained at lv. 7)

Originally posted by remainder of level 5
So at this point we move on to catching - with two more days of training before level 6.

12-15.32-.47-(10)
13-15.79-.46-(10)

Level 6 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 49.34
agility: 27.92
jumping: 14.65
stamina: 14.65
vision: 14.65
catching: 16.58
confidence: 12.5
carrying: 12.5

Originally posted by Level 6
$14400, 12 days of training
Remainder 80 + (12 days training for 77 xp)=1004xp

1--16.58-.45--(15)
2--17.03-.44--(15)
3--17.47-.43--(15)
4--17.90-.43--(15)
5--18.33-.42--(15)
6--18.75-.41--(15)
7--19.16-.40--(15)
8--19.56-.40--(15)
9--19.96-.39--(15)
10-20.35-.39--(15)
11-20.74-.38--(15)
12-21.12-.37--(15)

Level 7 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 49.34
agility: 48.25 (28.25 + 20)
jumping: 14.98
stamina: 14.98
vision: 14.98
catching: 21.82
confidence: 13
carrying: 13

Originally posted by Level 7
$16800, 14 days of training(12 during season 2, 2 during season 3)
Remainder 4 + (14 days training for 73 xp)=1026xp

1--21.82-.37--(0)
2--22.19-.36--(0)
3--22.55-.35--(0)
4--22.90-.35--(0)
5--23.25-.34--(0)
6--23.59-.34--(0)
7--23.93-.33--(0)
8--24.26-.33--(0)
9--24.59-.33--(0)
10-24.92-.32--(0)
11-25.24-.32--(0)
12-25.56-.31--(0)

Accumulated training costs= $46600 minimum requirement for sallary during season 2;
$2800 fee carries over to season 3 (2 days of L7 training);
Season 3 begins.
Originally posted by remainder of level 7

13-25.87-.31--(0)
14-26.18-.30--(0)

Level 8 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 49.67
agility: 48.58
jumping: 15.31
stamina: 15.31
vision: 15.31
catching: 26.81
confidence: 13.5
carrying: 13.5


As you can see, I stopped at the gaining of level 8 (I believe I moved on to psych homework at this point because computing numbers gets tiring, then when I logged on tonight I saw the updates)
Also, as you can see, by the time level 8 is reached you would have 5 unspent points, 49.67 speed, 48.58 agility and 26.81 catching. If you put those 5 points into catching it'd be at 31.81. If you added the 7 levels (that would take you to L15) of skill points and completely forgot about all training from this point on (or in a fairer scenario imagined it going to stats like jumping, stamina, vision, etc while playing games or not playing), you'd see an additional 35 skill points 1. capping catching 2. moving on to something else with the remaining 18.81 going toward capping another skill (maybe jumping?).
As you can see, there would have been obvious benefits.
Sorry if it's hard to process or read.. I tried my hardest to format it as I was compiling it, but it is fairly difficult to make blobs of numbers readable.

Given the nature of certain variables requiring estimation, their accuracy may be offset by very small amounts (in the hundredths), this shouldn't compromise the overall effect of the data


PS: No need to tell me that this information is now useless, I already know. :-p

too long to read but i guess good job on figuring that stuff out =\

It is far more readable if you skip almost everything in quotes - that's the portion of the information that was calculated, the things outside of quotes are the results.

Obviously with the new training system you'd assume that if you're trying to fill up a bar based on percentages of 100%, that not much should change other than the fact that you can't train anything up to ##.06 so neatly before you decide to cap it :/. At least I hope the %'s in the training bar stay somewhat equivalent to their net value in nightly training that we've been used to for so long.

Couple of things DW,

1. You'd have been better off way up at the top when you hit lvl 3 of training speed a bit more - getting it closer to 24.06 before spending the skill points. Optimized this way (and assuming .33 per day training SPs), with about 2 more days of training you could have hit the 49.01 instead of 48.35, a difference of about .66 * 2 = 1.32 Skill points.

2. Super Slow building for two seasons is a humongous trade off. While comparing players of similar level, you'll have a distinct advantage; A normal Build player, getting max xp, after two seasons without boosting will be 7 levels and 56 SPs (35 skill points + 21 SPs for level bonuses = 56 total) ahead of your player created at the same time. This is a HUGE amount to be behind and all things equal the Super Slow Builder will never catch up.

Oh and one more thing; the info while no longer valid for training is still good. I don't know if you've seen my similar work up for an OT and Punter here: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=959986 probably just as daunting a read.

Originally posted by TheGreatPuma

1. You'd have been better off way up at the top when you hit lvl 3 of training speed a bit more - getting it closer to 24.06 before spending the skill points. Optimized this way (and assuming .33 per day training SPs), with about 2 more days of training you could have hit the 49.01 instead of 48.35, a difference of about .66 * 2 = 1.32 Skill points. It's true, except that the goal here was to reach multiple soft caps, so the loss of two days training toward the next stat (agility) was too much of a loss - in my opinion - to make the transfer to speed. It would be more well rounded, yes, but since speed was already to the soft cap at that point my aim was moving to the next stat.

Originally posted by TheGreatPuma

2. Super Slow building for two seasons is a humongous trade off. While comparing players of similar level, you'll have a distinct advantage; A normal Build player, getting max xp, after two seasons without boosting will be 7 levels and 56 SPs (35 skill points + 21 SPs for level bonuses = 56 total) ahead of your player created at the same time. This is a HUGE amount to be behind and all things equal the Super Slow Builder will never catch up.
This is true, but if the slow build player was created a season or two in advance and they played each other at equal levels, the slow build player would have tremendous stat advantages over the normally built player. The likely scenario in this case is the one I've stated; A slow built player will enter into a level 13 capped league and play against ordinary level 13 players that were made a couple seasons after the slow builder, and considering how quickly you got to level 13 has nothing to do with how effective you are at level 13, the slow built player will perform better.

The only thing is, by time you get to that level 13 you have already wasted 2 seasons of playtime

Indeed.

Pros: Superior stats and therefor likely superior play in lower level leagues (capped leagues); Efficient stat distribution

Cons: Less longevity to your professional career; takes patience to accomplish; requires that you either own a team or know a team owner that will allot you salary and not play you;

So basically you're saying we will no longer be able to "slowbuild".
I was thinking the same thing, since Intense Training looks to be the way everyone will be training 95% of the time to accumulate tokens... then the other 5 % to go shopping to find new equipment. I myself would like to buy some Gloves of Stiff Arm for my WR!
lol... Yeah let's just hope they put an Offensive Playbook in for season 6. That would be nice.

At least, if you are able to slow build in this manner, this research means very little toward doing so.

It's likely that you'll still be able to slow build, because you can still train to raise stats and you can still avoid playing games so that your training means more per level.
One major advantage of this method however, is that you get use out of intense training while other players squander their training typically on relaxed while playing games, meaning they level much quicker and gain maybe 1-3 stats at the most via training between levels and you gain anywhere from 3-12 depending on what stat you're raising.
With the new changes, most players will be training intense because it has no effect on their energy, so the extent to which slow building would give you an advantage is logically diminished.

I can't really draw any conclusions yet though, Bort hasn't really mentioned much of the exact variables in play, so I'm shooting in the dark.


One possible advantage to "super slow building" in the changes is that intense training now costs less, so you can train more players on a team you own without going into negative cash

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks


One possible advantage to "super slow building" in the changes is that intense training now costs less, so you can train more players on a team you own without going into negative cash

basically you can train on intense the whole season and still get enough skill points as if you had leveled two more times. Unless the bars take ages to fill on intense, super slow build might even be better now.

I decided to finish up the missing research... Call me crazy.
Here it is:

Using the calculation of
[48-20=28] 48 being the soft cap, 20 being 4 levels of SP;
we find that if we take catching to [28-level distribution] now and don't spend SPs, it'll be capped at lvl. 11. This will provide us with better overall stat value via training a lower attribute.
So to fill in the blank:
.33*3=.99, 28-.99=27.01. Level distribution is .33, times 3 levels remaining before 11;
27.01-26.81=.2 required before level 11. We're going to do that later. (I know this will create a slight difference in efficiency, but it is minute and at the point of writing this I am 2 steps ahead and don't feel like redoing the levels.)

For now, we move on to jumping.

Originally posted by Level 8
$24000, 15 days of training
Remainder 26 + (15 days training for 69 xp)=1061xp


1--15.31-.47--(5)
2--15.78-.46--(5)
3--16.24-.45--(5)
4--16.69-.45--(5)
5--17.14-.44--(5)
6--17.58-.43--(5)
7--18.01-.42--(5)
8--18.42-.41--(5)
9--18.84-.41--(5)
10-19.25-.40--(5)
11-19.65-.40--(5)
12-20.05-.39--(5)
13-20.44-.38--(5)
14-20.82-.38--(5)
15-21.20-.37--(5)

Level 9 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 50
agility: 48.91
jumping: 21.90
stamina: 15.64
vision: 15.64
catching: 27.14
confidence: 14
carrying: 14

This is the portion of the build I'm going to call "finishing touches". Since 3 attributes are already lined up to be capped by level 13, a feat not many players could match, the rest of the training is going to be put into various support attributes so that the build is well rounded.
I'm going to attempt to get jumping, and vision to 30, stamina to 25, and confidence to 20.

Jumping first:

Originally posted by Level 9
$27000, 15 days of training
Remainder 61 + (15 days training for 65 xp)=1036xp

1--21.90-.37--(10)
2--22.27-.36--(10)
3--22.63-.35--(10)
4--22.98-.34--(10)
5--23.32-.34--(10)
6--23.66-.34--(10)
7--24.00-.33--(10)
8--24.33-.33--(10)
9--24.66-.33--(10)
10-24.99-.32--(10)
11-25.31-.32--(10)
12-25.63-.31--(10)
13-25.94-.31--(10)
14-26.25-.30--(10)
15-26.55-.30--(10)

Level 10 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 50.33
agility: 49.24
jumping: 27.18
stamina: 15.97
vision: 15.97
catching: 27.47
confidence: 14.5
carrying: 14.5

Originally posted by Level 10
$16000, 16 days of training(8 during season 3, 8 during season 4)
Remainder 65 + (16 days training for 61 xp)=1012xp

1--27.18-.29--(15)
2--27.47-.29--(15)
3--27.76-.28--(15)
4--28.04-.27--(15)
5--28.31-.27--(15)
6--28.58-.27--(15)
7--28.85-.27--(15)
8--29.12-.27--(15)

Accumulated training costs= $69800
+L8 equipment costs($10000)=$79800 minimum requirement for sallary during season 3.
$16000 fee carries over to season 4 (8 days of L10 training)

This is where we switch to training vision.

Originally posted by remainder of level 10

9--15.97-.46--(15)
10-16.43-.45--(15)
11-16.88-.45--(15)
12-17.33-.44--(15)
13-17.77-.43--(15)
14-18.20-.42--(15)
15-18.62-.41--(15)

Going to jam in a final training day of catching here to even it off:

16-27.47-.28--(15)


Level 11 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 50.66
agility: 49.57
jumping: 29.72
stamina: 16.3
vision: 19.36
catching: 48.08 (28.08+20 SP)
confidence: 15
carrying: 15

We continue raising vision:

Originally posted by Level 11
$39600, 18 days of training
Remainder 12 + (18 days training for 57 xp)=1038xp

1--19.36-.40--(0)
2--19.76-.40--(0)
3--20.16-.39--(0)
4--20.55-.38--(0)
5--20.93-.38--(0)
6--21.31-.37--(0)
7--21.68-.37--(0)
8--22.05-.36--(0)
9--22.41-.36--(0)
10-22.77-.35--(0)
11-23.12-.34--(0)
12-23.46-.34--(0)
13-23.80-.34--(0)
14-24.14-.33--(0)
15-24.47-.33--(0)
16-24.80-.33--(0)
17-25.13-.32--(0)
18-25.45-.32--(0)

Level 12 achieved.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 50.99
agility: 49.9
jumping: 30.05
stamina: 16.63
vision: 26.1
catching: 48.41
confidence: 15.5
carrying: 15.5

Considering vision seems fine and the other attributes are significantly lower, we'll get confidence up to 20 then throw the rest into stamina to maximize this beast's playtime.

Originally posted by Level 12
$33600, 18 days of training(14 during season 4, 4 during season 5)
Remainder 38 + (18 days training for 54 xp)=1010xp

Confidence:

1--15.50-.46--(5)
2--15.96-.46--(5)
3--16.42-.45--(5)
4--16.87-.45--(5)
5--17.32-.44--(5)
6--17.76-.43--(5)
7--18.19-.42--(5)
8--18.61-.41--(5)
9--19.02-.40--(5)
10-19.42-.40--(5)

Stamina:

11-16.63-.45--(5)
12-17.08-.44--(5)
13-17.52-.43--(5)
14-17.95-.43--(5)


Accumulated training costs= $89200 minimum requirement for sallary during season 4.
$9600 fee carries over to season 5 (4 days of L12 training)
Season 5 begins.

And so, you would begin your fifth season (meaning you have 6 season of play before stat diminishing) with 4 days of training until level 13, basically your first game will level you.

Stats would look like this at 13:

Stat subtotals:
speed: 51.32
agility: 50.23
jumping: 30.38
stamina: 18.71
vision: 26.43
catching: 48.74
confidence: 20.32
carrying: 16

Then you have to consider gear, an additional 4+4 stats to distribute. In this example, we'll use them in speed.

Then of course, you have to consider custom gear, 6 stats, we'll throw those into speed too.

Stat subtotals:
speed: 65.32
agility: 50.23
jumping: 30.38
stamina: 18.71
vision: 26.43
catching: 48.74
confidence: 20.32
carrying: 16

Then of course there's the matter of spending the 10 SP we have left over.

We could...
Get speed to 70 with equip?
Stamina to 28 (almost 29)?
Jumping to 40?
SAs? Mix it around here and there?
Doesn't matter, I think I made my point anyway. :-p Slow buildin' pwns.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
It's true, except that the goal here was to reach multiple soft caps, so the loss of two days training toward the next stat (agility) was too much of a loss - in my opinion - to make the transfer to speed. It would be more well rounded, yes, but since speed was already to the soft cap at that point my aim was moving to the next stat.


Understood. We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, the two days training (for what amounts to .66 SPs) you more than make up for on the back side by always having your str .66 SPs higher - which at the second cap is only 1.32. But at the third cap its 1.98, at the fourth (if you get there) it's 2.64, and so on. Plus just by looking at your numbers it doesn't look like it will cost you a level bonus on Blocking either i.e. you'll still be able to cap @ level 7.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks

This is true, but if the slow build player was created a season or two in advance and they played each other at equal levels, the slow build player would have tremendous stat advantages over the normally built player. The likely scenario in this case is the one I've stated; A slow built player will enter into a level 13 capped league and play against ordinary level 13 players that were made a couple seasons after the slow builder, and considering how quickly you got to level 13 has nothing to do with how effective you are at level 13, the slow built player will perform better.

Yep. I've got a couple of players doing this right now, solely for that goal. Afterwards, though, I'll probably retire them. (Although I may do it sooner rather than later as it doesn't look like I'll be able to train without a team anymore.)

Daddy Warbucks, are you the Grinch who stole Xmas or just the brain-surgeon who removed fun?