Reroll is fine.
I'd just keep rerolling until I got the numbers I want.
I'd just keep rerolling until I got the numbers I want.
Staz
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Originally posted by mandyross
Reroll is fine.
I'd just keep rerolling until I got the numbers I want.
Yeah, that would be fine with me. Still have an element of randomness, but you could generally get where you want.
Reroll is fine.
I'd just keep rerolling until I got the numbers I want.
Yeah, that would be fine with me. Still have an element of randomness, but you could generally get where you want.
BellyCheck
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But when you're rerolling for height/weight, it should segment out your original stats and modify accordingly, if the database "remembers." I.e., they are part of a general roll originally. So if you drop strength 2 points to get the height and weight up, oh freakin well. You wanted to get your weight and height right, so that's what you get.
mandyross
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Originally posted by BellyCheck
But when you're rerolling for height/weight, it should segment out your original stats and modify accordingly, if the database "remembers." I.e., they are part of a general roll originally. So if you drop strength 2 points to get the height and weight up, oh freakin well. You wanted to get your weight and height right, so that's what you get.
This is just stupid. The original rolls are affected by training, level gains and SP added so it would be too hard to isolate (or 'segment out', in the above terms) and reproduce the effects that differing them would have.
Plus people can reroll for hours and probably get something better than before!
But when you're rerolling for height/weight, it should segment out your original stats and modify accordingly, if the database "remembers." I.e., they are part of a general roll originally. So if you drop strength 2 points to get the height and weight up, oh freakin well. You wanted to get your weight and height right, so that's what you get.
This is just stupid. The original rolls are affected by training, level gains and SP added so it would be too hard to isolate (or 'segment out', in the above terms) and reproduce the effects that differing them would have.
Plus people can reroll for hours and probably get something better than before!
Staz
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Originally posted by mandyross
Originally posted by BellyCheck
But when you're rerolling for height/weight, it should segment out your original stats and modify accordingly, if the database "remembers." I.e., they are part of a general roll originally. So if you drop strength 2 points to get the height and weight up, oh freakin well. You wanted to get your weight and height right, so that's what you get.
This is just stupid. The original rolls are affected by training, level gains and SP added so it would be too hard to isolate (or 'segment out', in the above terms) and reproduce the effects that differing them would have.
Plus people can reroll for hours and probably get something better than before!
Correct. The weight and height should be independent from skills. The weight will already directly affect your physical performance, so actually affecting your skill points isn't necessary.
Originally posted by BellyCheck
But when you're rerolling for height/weight, it should segment out your original stats and modify accordingly, if the database "remembers." I.e., they are part of a general roll originally. So if you drop strength 2 points to get the height and weight up, oh freakin well. You wanted to get your weight and height right, so that's what you get.
This is just stupid. The original rolls are affected by training, level gains and SP added so it would be too hard to isolate (or 'segment out', in the above terms) and reproduce the effects that differing them would have.
Plus people can reroll for hours and probably get something better than before!
Correct. The weight and height should be independent from skills. The weight will already directly affect your physical performance, so actually affecting your skill points isn't necessary.
BellyCheck
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What does "should" mean? You want do-overs, just do-over. Don't tell me how "stupid" it is that you don't get an extra roll to just isolate height/weight. The first rolls gave you height and weight along with your other attributes. If you want better height/weight, fine. It should interact with your other attributes/base build. The point is, in the original roll, you would be unlikely to roll the "perfect" guy. Something would be off. So you put re-rollers in a position to take 2 bites from that apple, while presumeably new players get only 1. (i.e., fix your attributes like you like them, then fix your weight/height as you like it, once your attribute list is to your liking.) With infinite rolls, there may be no advantage, but isolating these two variables obviously is a great advantage for the real world, where there are 3600 seconds in an hour and a limit to a normal man's patience.
Staz
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Originally posted by BellyCheck
What does "should" mean? You want do-overs, just do-over. Don't tell me how "stupid" it is that you don't get an extra roll to just isolate height/weight. The first rolls gave you height and weight along with your other attributes. If you want better height/weight, fine. It should interact with your other attributes/base build. The point is, in the original roll, you would be unlikely to roll the "perfect" guy. Something would be off. So you put re-rollers in a position to take 2 bites from that apple, while presumeably new players get only 1. (i.e., fix your attributes like you like them, then fix your weight/height as you like it, once your attribute list is to your liking.) With infinite rolls, there may be no advantage, but isolating these two variables obviously is a great advantage for the real world, where there are 3600 seconds in an hour and a limit to a normal man's patience.
Height and weight should be separate from skills. They should be available at player creation as separate rolls, and they should allow older players to reroll their weight. Since current players were built one way based on the sim, changing the sim should allow those already created players to adjust to the new sim.
Of course, the idea of making everything together is a solid thought. The 'player creation' options are open as it currently stands, but there has to be a way for current players to adjust their weight one time to make up for the new changes. Maybe only allow 10 rolls? 5?
What does "should" mean? You want do-overs, just do-over. Don't tell me how "stupid" it is that you don't get an extra roll to just isolate height/weight. The first rolls gave you height and weight along with your other attributes. If you want better height/weight, fine. It should interact with your other attributes/base build. The point is, in the original roll, you would be unlikely to roll the "perfect" guy. Something would be off. So you put re-rollers in a position to take 2 bites from that apple, while presumeably new players get only 1. (i.e., fix your attributes like you like them, then fix your weight/height as you like it, once your attribute list is to your liking.) With infinite rolls, there may be no advantage, but isolating these two variables obviously is a great advantage for the real world, where there are 3600 seconds in an hour and a limit to a normal man's patience.
Height and weight should be separate from skills. They should be available at player creation as separate rolls, and they should allow older players to reroll their weight. Since current players were built one way based on the sim, changing the sim should allow those already created players to adjust to the new sim.
Of course, the idea of making everything together is a solid thought. The 'player creation' options are open as it currently stands, but there has to be a way for current players to adjust their weight one time to make up for the new changes. Maybe only allow 10 rolls? 5?
G.O.D Turner
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I'm down, so long as things are "within reason" for weight alterations to attributes.
Staz
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Originally posted by G.O.D Turner
I'm down, so long as things are "within reason" for weight alterations to attributes.
Definitely.
I'm down, so long as things are "within reason" for weight alterations to attributes.
Definitely.
GSUFan513
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You do have outliers however!
+1
HOWEVER!!!!!!
I think if you were to take the #'s you are getting, and make a group for them, IE officially give them a speed for their position. For instance, the fastest OL vs. the slowest OL and make a factor for this. So if a WR is 225 lbs and a speed of 95 vs. a WR of 200 lbs and a speed of 95, the 225 lbs WR can theoretically be as fast as the 200 pounder.
I don't quite know how to phrase it. I agree with the overall idea, but maybe it should only be applied when a player is under a certain level?
+1
HOWEVER!!!!!!
I think if you were to take the #'s you are getting, and make a group for them, IE officially give them a speed for their position. For instance, the fastest OL vs. the slowest OL and make a factor for this. So if a WR is 225 lbs and a speed of 95 vs. a WR of 200 lbs and a speed of 95, the 225 lbs WR can theoretically be as fast as the 200 pounder.
I don't quite know how to phrase it. I agree with the overall idea, but maybe it should only be applied when a player is under a certain level?
Staz
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Originally posted by GSUFan513
You do have outliers however!
+1
HOWEVER!!!!!!
I think if you were to take the #'s you are getting, and make a group for them, IE officially give them a speed for their position. For instance, the fastest OL vs. the slowest OL and make a factor for this. So if a WR is 225 lbs and a speed of 95 vs. a WR of 200 lbs and a speed of 95, the 225 lbs WR can theoretically be as fast as the 200 pounder.
I don't quite know how to phrase it. I agree with the overall idea, but maybe it should only be applied when a player is under a certain level?
The idea I think I posted in the OP (maybe I left it out on accident) is that the curve doesn't apply until the skill is above 60?
Also, something I just thought of:
Strength allow heavier players to improve their overall speed? I know there have been heavier players (like Greg Jones, the 245lb RB out of Florida State a few years back that was running a 4.5 40yd dash) that run fast. Perhaps somehow allowing strength to factor into speed could be a good idea?
You do have outliers however!
+1
HOWEVER!!!!!!
I think if you were to take the #'s you are getting, and make a group for them, IE officially give them a speed for their position. For instance, the fastest OL vs. the slowest OL and make a factor for this. So if a WR is 225 lbs and a speed of 95 vs. a WR of 200 lbs and a speed of 95, the 225 lbs WR can theoretically be as fast as the 200 pounder.
I don't quite know how to phrase it. I agree with the overall idea, but maybe it should only be applied when a player is under a certain level?
The idea I think I posted in the OP (maybe I left it out on accident) is that the curve doesn't apply until the skill is above 60?
Also, something I just thought of:
Strength allow heavier players to improve their overall speed? I know there have been heavier players (like Greg Jones, the 245lb RB out of Florida State a few years back that was running a 4.5 40yd dash) that run fast. Perhaps somehow allowing strength to factor into speed could be a good idea?
GSUFan513
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Originally posted by Staz
Originally posted by GSUFan513
You do have outliers however!
+1
HOWEVER!!!!!!
I think if you were to take the #'s you are getting, and make a group for them, IE officially give them a speed for their position. For instance, the fastest OL vs. the slowest OL and make a factor for this. So if a WR is 225 lbs and a speed of 95 vs. a WR of 200 lbs and a speed of 95, the 225 lbs WR can theoretically be as fast as the 200 pounder.
I don't quite know how to phrase it. I agree with the overall idea, but maybe it should only be applied when a player is under a certain level?
The idea I think I posted in the OP (maybe I left it out on accident) is that the curve doesn't apply until the skill is above 60?
Also, something I just thought of:
Strength allow heavier players to improve their overall speed? I know there have been heavier players (like Greg Jones, the 245lb RB out of Florida State a few years back that was running a 4.5 40yd dash) that run fast. Perhaps somehow allowing strength to factor into speed could be a good idea?
I don't know....all I was trying to say is a Calvin Johnson type player shouldn't be hurt as far as his speed goes because he is tall and 240 lbs. Otherwise, I completely agree...
Originally posted by GSUFan513
You do have outliers however!
+1
HOWEVER!!!!!!
I think if you were to take the #'s you are getting, and make a group for them, IE officially give them a speed for their position. For instance, the fastest OL vs. the slowest OL and make a factor for this. So if a WR is 225 lbs and a speed of 95 vs. a WR of 200 lbs and a speed of 95, the 225 lbs WR can theoretically be as fast as the 200 pounder.
I don't quite know how to phrase it. I agree with the overall idea, but maybe it should only be applied when a player is under a certain level?
The idea I think I posted in the OP (maybe I left it out on accident) is that the curve doesn't apply until the skill is above 60?
Also, something I just thought of:
Strength allow heavier players to improve their overall speed? I know there have been heavier players (like Greg Jones, the 245lb RB out of Florida State a few years back that was running a 4.5 40yd dash) that run fast. Perhaps somehow allowing strength to factor into speed could be a good idea?
I don't know....all I was trying to say is a Calvin Johnson type player shouldn't be hurt as far as his speed goes because he is tall and 240 lbs. Otherwise, I completely agree...
BellyCheck
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Nah, Staz, now you've lost me. I think the re-roll limit is a good one, say, 10 rolls.
HOWEVER, you want height and weight to be separate from all other rolls for some reason. Fine, so long as they are ALWAYS separate from other rolls, now and going forward.
The last thing you want is a new player having to roll all his attributes at one time, while old players get to fix one set of attributes as they like them, then segment out another set of attributes.
I think the original "rolling" function is based on the idea that you shouldn't get *everything* in one player's build.
Your goal here in the OP seems to be to make heavier players get tired faster. We got off on the mechanics of rerolls because everybody perceives (or at least phrases) every change as working to their disadvantage and requiring that they get do-overs. All I am advocating is that do-overs come with the same upside and downside as if your dynamic weight were the rule all along, so we stop having this mad rush to tweak every glitch to our advantage.
It *would* help my own undersized linebacker, so I get where these guys, and you, are coming from. I just disagree.
HOWEVER, you want height and weight to be separate from all other rolls for some reason. Fine, so long as they are ALWAYS separate from other rolls, now and going forward.
The last thing you want is a new player having to roll all his attributes at one time, while old players get to fix one set of attributes as they like them, then segment out another set of attributes.
I think the original "rolling" function is based on the idea that you shouldn't get *everything* in one player's build.
Your goal here in the OP seems to be to make heavier players get tired faster. We got off on the mechanics of rerolls because everybody perceives (or at least phrases) every change as working to their disadvantage and requiring that they get do-overs. All I am advocating is that do-overs come with the same upside and downside as if your dynamic weight were the rule all along, so we stop having this mad rush to tweak every glitch to our advantage.
It *would* help my own undersized linebacker, so I get where these guys, and you, are coming from. I just disagree.
Staz
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Originally posted by BellyCheck
Nah, Staz, now you've lost me. I think the re-roll limit is a good one, say, 10 rolls.
HOWEVER, you want height and weight to be separate from all other rolls for some reason. Fine, so long as they are ALWAYS separate from other rolls, now and going forward.
That could be done, I think. As long as there is consistency across the board, I agree.
The last thing you want is a new player having to roll all his attributes at one time, while old players get to fix one set of attributes as they like them, then segment out another set of attributes.
Yes, you are definitely correct. Any "reroll" done by the current players would be PURELY based on height weight, and applied a limit? The current players thing is a touchy subject that would need some careful planning.
I think the original "rolling" function is based on the idea that you shouldn't get *everything* in one player's build.
Agreed. There should be sacrifices made
Your goal here in the OP seems to be to make heavier players get tired faster. We got off on the mechanics of rerolls because everybody perceives (or at least phrases) every change as working to their disadvantage and requiring that they get do-overs. All I am advocating is that do-overs come with the same upside and downside as if your dynamic weight were the rule all along, so we stop having this mad rush to tweak every glitch to our advantage.
Stamina isn't the goal of my OP. My intentions were to make weight a realistic concept. Your 350lb Center isn't going to run a 4.5 40. There should be no way in hell he'd do that. So even if you gave him 100 speed, it shouldn't be the same 100 speed as a WR. People have suggested position caps, but that generalizes too much. There are heavy, power DEs and lighter, faster DEs. Same with RBs, LBs, SSs, WRs, OTs, and hell, OL in general. So that would take that sort of thing out of play. Caps on weight would be a solid concept, but seemingly tough to incorporate, and what would happen to the current builds when new caps are implemented? All in all, I think this is the smartest, simplest way to make players MOVE more realistically. If stamina comes into play, that's fine with me.
It *would* help my own undersized linebacker, so I get where these guys, and you, are coming from. I just disagree.
And disagreement is obviously okay
. We need people to disagree and point out flaws in our line of thinking in order to improve the idea. I think your main concern at this point is what to do with the current players?
Nah, Staz, now you've lost me. I think the re-roll limit is a good one, say, 10 rolls.
HOWEVER, you want height and weight to be separate from all other rolls for some reason. Fine, so long as they are ALWAYS separate from other rolls, now and going forward.
That could be done, I think. As long as there is consistency across the board, I agree.
The last thing you want is a new player having to roll all his attributes at one time, while old players get to fix one set of attributes as they like them, then segment out another set of attributes.
Yes, you are definitely correct. Any "reroll" done by the current players would be PURELY based on height weight, and applied a limit? The current players thing is a touchy subject that would need some careful planning.
I think the original "rolling" function is based on the idea that you shouldn't get *everything* in one player's build.
Agreed. There should be sacrifices made
Your goal here in the OP seems to be to make heavier players get tired faster. We got off on the mechanics of rerolls because everybody perceives (or at least phrases) every change as working to their disadvantage and requiring that they get do-overs. All I am advocating is that do-overs come with the same upside and downside as if your dynamic weight were the rule all along, so we stop having this mad rush to tweak every glitch to our advantage.
Stamina isn't the goal of my OP. My intentions were to make weight a realistic concept. Your 350lb Center isn't going to run a 4.5 40. There should be no way in hell he'd do that. So even if you gave him 100 speed, it shouldn't be the same 100 speed as a WR. People have suggested position caps, but that generalizes too much. There are heavy, power DEs and lighter, faster DEs. Same with RBs, LBs, SSs, WRs, OTs, and hell, OL in general. So that would take that sort of thing out of play. Caps on weight would be a solid concept, but seemingly tough to incorporate, and what would happen to the current builds when new caps are implemented? All in all, I think this is the smartest, simplest way to make players MOVE more realistically. If stamina comes into play, that's fine with me.
It *would* help my own undersized linebacker, so I get where these guys, and you, are coming from. I just disagree.
And disagreement is obviously okay
. We need people to disagree and point out flaws in our line of thinking in order to improve the idea. I think your main concern at this point is what to do with the current players?Last edited May 4, 2009 09:13:30
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