Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Shelby Delby
It's not nice to call a lady names, BiggerBlue...especially when she's right.

Thanks for backing up my research everybody...perhaps BiggerBlue will do some of his own next time before he calls somebody an idiot/liar/both.

(anyone else LOL'ing that a mid 30's level DE doesn't have more than 80 in either primary stat? )

Served.

Biggerblue is a fool lol, but I do agree that DE's aren't as broke as people claim them to be. DE's are well built now. Look at it this way. OT's have a shorter distance to the QB plus they have less steps to take rather then a DE that has to go around a OT. I'd imagine if a 90 strength OT so much as tapped a 25-35 str DE. The DE would get knocked over. You need some strength to keep your feet. Plus not all DE's are broke. Check out my DE he has a sack in every game vs a equal lvl OT and the couple games without sacks he went up against a higher lvl OT and a lvl 36 OT that has always beat him even last season that bastard beat em.

You can also check out iMan's DE and surf through the pro leagues and find some DE's here and there that have quite a few sacks.

Originally posted by direfire
Biggerblue is a fool lol, but I do agree that DE's aren't as broke as people claim them to be. DE's are well built now. Look at it this way. OT's have a shorter distance to the QB plus they have less steps to take rather then a DE that has to go around a OT. I'd imagine if a 90 strength OT so much as tapped a 25-35 str DE. The DE would get knocked over. You need some strength to keep your feet. Plus not all DE's are broke. Check out my DE he has a sack in every game vs a equal lvl OT and the couple games without sacks he went up against a higher lvl OT and a lvl 36 OT that has always beat him even last season that bastard beat em.

You can also check out iMan's DE and surf through the pro leagues and find some DE's here and there that have quite a few sacks.

My SS plays against your DE and i've been a fan of his for awhile. But you have to admit, while he has destroyed against lesser OTs (moreso than most DEs...you're definitely an excellent build) against good OTs he's getting completely schooled.

Yea level isn't everything.

Blitz Fast vs Ace Brika (lvl 46)
He has to have a not so great build for me to pull that off

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=43250
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=290622&pbp_id=1522711


Blitz Fast vs Lower Level OT's
I got a sack which is expected but I also got a Pass Deflection. Which means my DE is doing what I intended him to do.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=290424&pbp_id=2263411

Blitz Fast vs Steel Edge (The best OT I have played)
http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=290427&mode=pbp

Even though I didn't get a sack I still got a tackle for a loss. Doing more then he did last season against that particular OT.

My worst game of the season
I didn't get one sack and only had 1 missed tackle. I did go up against an OT with a 2 level advantage vs a team that beat us.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=290430&mode=pbp

When I built my DE I didn't do any research I just wanted him to be a DE that could excel at everything. A jack of all trades kind of. Usually when you play RPG's you notice that Jack of All trades are never the best build and it's always the build that specializes in one thing that does the best. By the time I hit the forum and learned that Agi/Spd is king for DE's and pretty much all D positions in general. I had already invested quite a few points in SA's (Which was stupid. Always take your attributes to where you want them first so yo can get the best gain from auto leveling). Plus I had invested a few points into strength after reading Deebo's guide. I put a ton of points into agi speed after reading it was a DE's best attributes and My DE started getting better.

My feeling though is a ton of DE's on the board are still getting bad advice with the general consenus as stat hogging DE tends to be Spd + first step DE's. I really feel borts pain cause he makes a couple of changes and the whole world goes crazy. RPG's are hard to make to have balance. You get tons of number smashing geeks playing and then they don't understand why there higher numbered stat doesn't beat a lower numbered stat. I'm sure bort's goal is to not have cookie cutter builds hence his reasoning for putting two SA trees in the game. I see a ton of DE's on this board that have everything invested in the pass rushing tree. Look at the NFL on the Dline you have Julius Peppers who is a beast at everything. Dwight Freeney who is a smaller speed rushing DE. Mario Williams who is a huge beast DE that can do everything like Julius peppers. Richard Seymour who is a strength based DE.

Look at the teams that win in the NFL too. The Steelers Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel. Arizona Cardinals Antonio Smith and Bertrand Barry. Let me get a show of hands with everyone that knows the number of sacks each of them has? I don't. So some DE's success is based on a team effort hence the reason DT are given the D line General Skill.

Anyways that's just my 78 cents.

Originally posted by bluto
Originally posted by direfire

Biggerblue is a fool lol, but I do agree that DE's aren't as broke as people claim them to be. DE's are well built now. Look at it this way. OT's have a shorter distance to the QB plus they have less steps to take rather then a DE that has to go around a OT. I'd imagine if a 90 strength OT so much as tapped a 25-35 str DE. The DE would get knocked over. You need some strength to keep your feet. Plus not all DE's are broke. Check out my DE he has a sack in every game vs a equal lvl OT and the couple games without sacks he went up against a higher lvl OT and a lvl 36 OT that has always beat him even last season that bastard beat em.

You can also check out iMan's DE and surf through the pro leagues and find some DE's here and there that have quite a few sacks.

My SS plays against your DE and i've been a fan of his for awhile. But you have to admit, while he has destroyed against lesser OTs (moreso than most DEs...you're definitely an excellent build) against good OTs he's getting completely schooled.

Just had a scrimmage game against an even OT and again I had 3 sacks and 3 hurries.

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but DE algorithm seems to be working fine. Time to recheck your builds

Originally posted by Shelby Delby
It's not nice to call a lady names, BiggerBlue...especially when she's right.

Thanks for backing up my research everybody...perhaps BiggerBlue will do some of his own next time before he calls somebody an idiot/liar/both.

(anyone else LOL'ing that a mid 30's level DE doesn't have more than 80 in either primary stat? )

Yes, LOLs. That is why I'm happy with my DE actually producing and you he-man wanna-be is whining like a little girl about your DE putting up 0s.

Also, I find it funny that GLB people still don't realize when your attribute is above 70s in spd/agi as the DE the Law of Diminishing Return greatly applies, since DE's zone of effectiveness is such a short distance from the end of the line to the QB, unlike other defensive positions when they have to cover half if not the whole field.

But hey, don't let me rain on your fantasy. Keep building spd/agi to 90s-100, ignore other attributes like they don't exist, and never ever invest in Run-Stopping SAs.

<shakes head> and they whine about DEs can't get around the OLs....

Originally posted by bluto
Originally posted by BiggerBlue

Originally posted by Shelby Delby


Sorry BB, DLight is right.

Your 3 sack game was against an OT with an open build...he had 25 spd.

So...14 sacks against gutteds...3 sacks against a guy who couldn't beat Oprah in a foot race.

No diserespect intended...but data prooves you wrong on this count.

Lesson learned for me to be too trusting.

You are either a liar, an idiot, or both.

The LOT I went up against has an open build, but his attributes are:

str = 72
spd = 49
agi = 51
blc = 70

Definitely a solid LOT for lvl 34. Definitely not spd = 25

Do you really like to lie like this to make a case and not think people will call you out on them?



Shelby wasn't lying. Look again...2 of your 3 were against the backup with the open build...25 spd.

Now play nice please.


So what do you guys want? Every DE to put up 3-5 sacks against even competition, that's when things will be "fixed?" I had one against even competition, that's plenty of evidence that Bort's DE algorithm is working.

Do you guys even watch NFL and realize DEs generally put up most of their sacks against lesser OT and will be lucky to get 1 if ever 2 against great OTs? Also it's not that irregular for sack-plenty DEs to put up a string of zeros for some games.

Can't believe I actually fought for you guys. Now I'm beginning to see why GLB discredits anybody speaking for the cause of DEs. When you have a doped she-man that thinks it's his god-given right to register sacks when he's up against even or better OT competition and put up numbers.

Originally posted by
So what do you guys want? Every DE to put up 3-5 sacks against even competition, that's when things will be "fixed?" I had one against even competition, that's plenty of evidence that Bort's DE algorithm is working.

Do you guys even watch NFL and realize DEs generally put up most of their sacks against lesser OT and will be lucky to get 1 if ever 2 against great OTs? Also it's not that irregular for sack-plenty DEs to put up a string of zeros for some games.

Can't believe I actually fought for you guys. Now I'm beginning to see why GLB discredits anybody speaking for the cause of DEs. When you have a doped she-man that thinks it's his god-given right to register sacks when he's up against even or better OT competition and put up numbers.



Aside from the fact that you claim to be an expert yet prove to be a neophyte with each post is amusing, every other person has said here and have managed to do it in a civil tone what is being looked for. We want the code to be examined and parity to be restored. Put another way, when I see that I'm going against a OT that is 6 to 8 levels lower I expect to see stats. This season O lines are pitching shut outs against D lines when the D line has +8 levels. You can not compare the NFL to GLB for the simple fact we have gutted/cpu teams. If an NFL franchise decided to pack it in and the city promoted the Arena League to fill out its place, everyone would expect HUGE numbers from the opposition. Since GLB is based off of points and at the end of the day each play is nothing more then lines of Mathematical equations it requires a re-evaluation.

To keep it simple lets take three stats: OL=Str+Blocking+Agility=x DL=Speed+Agility+Vision=Y
Play is run if X>Y the DE gets blocked if X<Y the DE gets around and another equation is ran to determine a sack.

What is being seen across the board this season is an OT that is 8 to 10 levels lower can stop a DE. In game terms that is 40 to 50 points. So the equation to determine, still being simplistic, OL=Str+Blocking+(Agility*.25)=X That simple change in code completely negates the DE's levels. You can equate some of it to builds and here is an example using my DE.

Now in these examples I'm only going to use the 5 base skill points you get per level.

Against a level 17 CPU OT I got 12 sacks: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=333696
If you've ever looked at a CPU players stats you know they are spread out and not stacked in the primary attributes that a Human would.

Against a level 18 and a level 15 Human OT I got 9 sacks: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=333697
Humans that are stacking the primary stats and ignoring the others.

So I had +17 levels on those tackles or 80 skill points so I expect to see that output or greater.

Now in this game http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=333693 against a Human LOT @ lvl 21 I got 4 sacks. Are you telling me that 15 points (5 points per level) is able to cut productivity in half? Negating the 14 levels or 70 skill points I had.

Finally two examples:

In this game http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=333657 I had 10 levels on the OT and managed no production. 50 skill points are negated.

This game: http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=333699 I had 2 levels on the OT and again, managed no production. 10 Skill points are negated.

Just graphing that out, someone else check my math please, it looks like a DE needs around a 4:1 Skill point advantage over an OT.

A graph of this should show a gradual decline in production. Instead it shows that +18 levels averages 10 sacks. +16 Levels averages 5 sacks. Once you hit the +10 range you production measured in fractions.

Now feel free to go off pick out a tangent and prop up another strawman argument, the fundamental math isn't going to change and it is un-balanced.

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
So what do you guys want? Every DE to put up 3-5 sacks against even competition, that's when things will be "fixed?" I had one against even competition, that's plenty of evidence that Bort's DE algorithm is working.


How many sacks on average do you think a team should have against an equal opponent? Lets say equal level OTs...offense that passes the ball 40 times per game.

Originally posted by ChicagoTRS
Originally posted by BiggerBlue

So what do you guys want? Every DE to put up 3-5 sacks against even competition, that's when things will be "fixed?" I had one against even competition, that's plenty of evidence that Bort's DE algorithm is working.


How many sacks on average do you think a team should have against an equal opponent? Lets say equal level OTs...offense that passes the ball 40 times per game.

Equal level, 40 pass plays should be 4 on a low end and 6 on the high end with 8 to 12 hurries. That's taking into account HB/FB/TE remaining to provide double teams.

The Steelers averaged 2.8 sacks per game this season and they didn't have the luxury of Gutted/CPU teams.

I wonder what the NFL average is? and then we could bump it a bit because of the increased amount of plays in a GLB game.

Anyway...If you look at Western Europe Pro which is the most competitive league top to bottom in GLB. If you look at the top 30 teams in the league (remove the 2 awful 0-12 teams)...teams are averaging ~1.5 sacks per game. The worst passing offense in that league is throwing for over 200ypg.

I think defenses have a legitimate complaint that they need to be able to pressure the QB a bit more.

Originally posted by ChicagoTRS
I wonder what the NFL average is? and then we could bump it a bit because of the increased amount of plays in a GLB game.

Anyway...If you look at Western Europe Pro which is the most competitive league top to bottom in GLB. If you look at the top 30 teams in the league (remove the 2 awful 0-12 teams)...teams are averaging ~1.5 sacks per game. The worst passing offense in that league is throwing for over 200ypg.

I think defenses have a legitimate complaint that they need to be able to pressure the QB a bit more.

You can't take the NFL as an average. The sack leader had 20 all season, against a gutted team you can hit the teens easy.

So you'd have to make it a weighted average.

Originally posted by Signalsgt
Originally posted by ChicagoTRS

I wonder what the NFL average is? and then we could bump it a bit because of the increased amount of plays in a GLB game.

Anyway...If you look at Western Europe Pro which is the most competitive league top to bottom in GLB. If you look at the top 30 teams in the league (remove the 2 awful 0-12 teams)...teams are averaging ~1.5 sacks per game. The worst passing offense in that league is throwing for over 200ypg.

I think defenses have a legitimate complaint that they need to be able to pressure the QB a bit more.

You can't take the NFL as an average. The sack leader had 20 all season, against a gutted team you can hit the teens easy.

So you'd have to make it a weighted average.

Of course...it only applies against equal competition. That is why I am only looking a Western Europe Pro

And I want to get away from "The sack leader had 20 all season"...I would rather start looking at team stats...right now GLB teams are averaging 1.5 sacks per game...too low IMO.

Originally posted by Signalsgt
Originally posted by ChicagoTRS

Originally posted by BiggerBlue


So what do you guys want? Every DE to put up 3-5 sacks against even competition, that's when things will be "fixed?" I had one against even competition, that's plenty of evidence that Bort's DE algorithm is working.


How many sacks on average do you think a team should have against an equal opponent? Lets say equal level OTs...offense that passes the ball 40 times per game.

Equal level, 40 pass plays should be 4 on a low end and 6 on the high end with 8 to 12 hurries. That's taking into account HB/FB/TE remaining to provide double teams.

The Steelers averaged 2.8 sacks per game this season and they didn't have the luxury of Gutted/CPU teams.

no, but the Steelers have the luxury of blitz, great secondary (also known as coverage sack), and a solid front 4.

4 on the low end 6 on the high end, you got to be kidding me.

Originally posted by pottsman
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=SACKS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2008&seasonType=REG Sacks for last year by team
Top team in the NFL for sacks this season was the Cowboys, with 59 (3.69 per game). Average sacks for all teams was 32.34, which works out to 2 per team per game. Allowing for some GLB inflation, I wouldn't complain if the average number were up to 4 or 5, but the higher numbers should happen when a good D-line meets a worse (but still similarly talented) o-line. Top O-lines should shut teams out most games.

Best o-line last season was a tie between Denver and Tennessee, who allowed 12 each this season. At least 4 shut out games, probably more.

Some real stats, taken from me in another thread.