Warrior General Games

Originally posted by cjericho
If we could just for next season completely remove any restrictions for int returns we can see what the real numbers are and then go from there.

I have to speak up now: No way. We saw the numbers in S26 (and 25 and before), and it was ridiculous. That should never be relived. I think they can even still be accessed by those who know how to access them, although I don't know how and perhaps they can't be.

Someone else posted them when the S26 numbers were still up, and by using both conference's leaders stats from the WL (rather than just league leaders) got around most of GLB's truncation (the league leader numbers were truncated)...but if anything the numbers we saw were lower than they really were in GLB, and they were still way above a realistic ratio.

People point out how everyone but me has +1'd the OP's idea. Well, I'll +1 looking for a happy medium, because this season's returns were way too low; but it would be ridiculous to return to disastrous outcomes like before this season-- and I was far from the only one complaining about way too many Pick Sixes in S26.

Remember, there was a reason it was changed in the first place. Yes, it was changed too drastically; but there was a reason it was changed.

Originally posted by Ken1
I have to speak up now: No way. We saw the numbers in S26 (and 25 and before), and it was ridiculous. That should never be relived. I think they can even still be accessed by those who know how to access them, although I don't know how and perhaps they can't be.

Someone else posted them when the S26 numbers were still up, and by using both conference's leaders stats from the WL (rather than just league leaders) got around most of GLB's truncation (the league leader numbers were truncated)...but if anything the numbers we saw were lower than they really were in GLB, and they were still way above a realistic ratio.

People point out how everyone but me has +1'd the OP's idea. Well, I'll +1 looking for a happy medium, because this season's returns were way too low; but it would be ridiculous to return to disastrous outcomes like before this season-- and I was far from the only one complaining about way too many Pick Sixes in S26.

Remember, there was a reason it was changed in the first place. Yes, it was changed too drastically; but there was a reason it was changed.



So then lets see those numbers because the only way we can fix this once and for all is if we have all the facts. Otherwise if they can't then we need new info.

Originally posted by cjericho
Originally posted by Ken1

I have to speak up now: No way. We saw the numbers in S26 (and 25 and before), and it was ridiculous. That should never be relived. I think they can even still be accessed by those who know how to access them, although I don't know how and perhaps they can't be.

Someone else posted them when the S26 numbers were still up, and by using both conference's leaders stats from the WL (rather than just league leaders) got around most of GLB's truncation (the league leader numbers were truncated)...but if anything the numbers we saw were lower than they really were in GLB, and they were still way above a realistic ratio.

People point out how everyone but me has +1'd the OP's idea. Well, I'll +1 looking for a happy medium, because this season's returns were way too low; but it would be ridiculous to return to disastrous outcomes like before this season-- and I was far from the only one complaining about way too many Pick Sixes in S26.

Remember, there was a reason it was changed in the first place. Yes, it was changed too drastically; but there was a reason it was changed.



So then lets see those numbers because the only way we can fix this once and for all is if we have all the facts. Otherwise if they can't then we need new info.




Ken1 will happily make the facts up. It doesn't matter that he has any proof he is so certain of it that he doesn't need to even produce it.

Originally posted by cjericho
So then lets see those numbers because the only way we can fix this once and for all is if we have all the facts. Otherwise if they can't then we need new info.


I actually found it for S26 WL:

Alpha Conference had 70 Pick Sixes in S26: http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interception_return_td&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

Zeta Conference had 68 Pick Sixes.in S26: http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interception_return_td&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

That's 138 Pick Sixes for the league.

The WL had, in S26, a total of 530 interceptions, from adding up the interceptions of all the QBs:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=0&stat=passing&sort=interceptions_thrown&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

138/530 shows 26% of picks were Pick Sixes, much higher than the 9-10% it ought to be. If it were 12%, okay, close enough. If it were 7%, you should say the same. But it wasn't. It was closer to triple than double the percentage it should have been. That's why we should never, ever consider going back there.

That was shown before, by someone else, but I couldn't find that post. Fortunately, I was able to reconstitute it through some grunt work.

Originally posted by Ken1
Someone else posted them when the S26 numbers were still up, and by using both conference's leaders stats from the WL (rather than just league leaders) got around most of GLB's truncation (the league leader numbers were truncated)...but if anything the numbers we saw were lower than they really were in GLB, and they were still way above a realistic ratio.
:waves:

Past season stats are always available.

S27 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=27&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=27&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

S26 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

S25 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=25&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=25&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

Edit: emphasis on the wrong syllable.

On an on-topic note, how many defensive dots are working on their carrying? You know, since that's part of the catch roll for offensive dots and all.

Originally posted by Changelog
Feb 15, 2012
- Catching attribute now more important in INT catch chance
- Intercepting defender will now fall down on interceptions if they fail a catching check

Originally posted by CDZYO

:waves:

Past season stats are always available.

S27 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=27&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=27&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

S26 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

S25 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=25&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=25&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

Edit: emphasis on the wrong syllable.

Thanks for pointing that out CDZYO I was not aware of that till now.

Originally posted by Ken1
I actually found it for S26 WL:

Alpha Conference had 70 Pick Sixes in S26: http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interception_return_td&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

Zeta Conference had 68 Pick Sixes.in S26: http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interception_return_td&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

That's 138 Pick Sixes for the league.

The WL had, in S26, a total of 530 interceptions, from adding up the interceptions of all the QBs:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=0&stat=passing&sort=interceptions_thrown&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

138/530 shows 26% of picks were Pick Sixes, much higher than the 9-10% it ought to be. If it were 12%, okay, close enough. If it were 7%, you should say the same. But it wasn't. It was closer to triple than double the percentage it should have been. That's why we should never, ever consider going back there.

That was shown before, by someone else, but I couldn't find that post. Fortunately, I was able to reconstitute it through some grunt work.



Now that I have seen the numbers I see what you are now talking about. I still have issue with your insistence that GLB follow NFL stat standards though because there is no way GLB can match up to them completely. NFL numbers are almost always going to be lower than GLB numbers due to their differences. I do see though that there were a bit too many returns and as far as I'm concerned I could compromise on at least a 15% ratio. I do not feel we have to meet the NFL standard entirely.

Just FYI though I did a comparison of the total number of offensive and KR/PR TD's to total defensive TD's and this is what I found:

GLB defensive TD's were only 11% of offensive and KR/PR TD production, the NFL was 7% so from that perspective INT TD's are only 4% higher.

Originally posted by cjericho
as far as I'm concerned I could compromise on at least a 15% ratio. I do not feel we have to meet the NFL standard entirely.

The aim should be the NFL standard. It's acceptable to miss the target on either side by a small amount; but one should always aim for real life. One big reason for that is that it's one less thing to argue about.

Originally posted by CDZYO

:waves:

Past season stats are always available.

S27 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=27&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=27&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

S26 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=26&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

S25 WL Ints:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=25&league_id=280&conference_id=559&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw
http://goallineblitz.com/game/stats.pl?season=25&league_id=280&conference_id=560&stat=defense&sort=interceptions&playoffs=0&stat_type=raw

Edit: emphasis on the wrong syllable.

The thing I missed was that there are no such links on the "league team stats" page, maybe because those stats do get messed up when teams get changed around. If they did have old stats from that page, it would have been easy to get the number of picks and picks for TDs instead of going through players one by one and adding them.

But the link for players in the past did allow me to do what I did above, just with more drudgery.

Originally posted by Janet Cooke
Originally posted by cjericho

as far as I'm concerned I could compromise on at least a 15% ratio. I do not feel we have to meet the NFL standard entirely.

The aim should be the NFL standard. It's acceptable to miss the target on either side by a small amount; but one should always aim for real life. One big reason for that is that it's one less thing to argue about.




Except that GLB is rarely like the NFL in terms of competition. Outside of WL which generally has close matchups, GLB is more like 3-4 NFL teams playing 5-6 top college teams, 5-6 Division 2 teams, 3-4 community college teams and the rest is beer league flag football teams.

Even WL is much closer to the college game than it is to the Pros. Some of the rules are closer to college with sacks being charged to the running game and the way starters and backups are used is completely different than any NFL team you will ever watch.

The NFL is a riveting product because it has teams that are very close in talent and in coaching. GLB will never be able to replicate that since the build process naturally means that a few people are going to build top tier dots and have great coordinators and some will end up with average dots and coordinators and a couple will just be terrible in every facet.

The aim should be to make a football sim that is fun for everyone who builds dots and coordinates. That has absolutely nothing to do with the NFL.

Originally posted by John Hinckley, Jr.
Except that GLB is rarely like the NFL in terms of competition. Outside of WL which generally has close matchups, GLB is more like 3-4 NFL teams playing 5-6 top college teams, 5-6 Division 2 teams, 3-4 community college teams and the rest is beer league flag football teams.

Even WL is much closer to the college game than it is to the Pros. Some of the rules are closer to college with sacks being charged to the running game and the way starters and backups are used is completely different than any NFL team you will ever watch.

The WL seems to have almost as much parity as the NFL, but if someone can point me to a good site for NCAA Division 1 stats, I'd be glad to take that into account.

Because of blowouts and the like, I don't try to compare lower levels, even though they should also IMO be as realistic as possible. Actually, Elite leagues at lower levels have mostly close matchups, but they'll usually have a gutted team or two that will again make the stats incomparable (however, if you just took, say, the Top 12 teams from an Elite level league, it would be similar in parity to the WL).

Originally posted by John Hinckley, Jr.
The aim should be to make a football sim that is fun for everyone who builds dots and coordinates. That has absolutely nothing to do with the NFL.

What's fun for me (and for most people, based on the poll) is when I can see my built dots and coordinations play out as they would on a real football field-- ideally for the same reasons, but at least realistic results. Nothing angered me in past seasons as much as when the QB I coordinate for threw Pick Sixes. It felt like I was being cheated, because I knew it wasn't anything like real life. Long ago, I felt the same about all the long fumble returns. Anything given to someone relative to realism is taken from someone else.

I don't see how a more cartoonish sim could be fun for people, at all. There are (a minority of) people for whom it would be, but I don't get it.

You can strive for realism all you want but the fact of the matter is that in GLB it is not possible. The way I see it GLB is the best of both worlds, you get your share of blow outs and close games. That is how GLB balances it out, you have the WL for the best teams to play in and you have the lower and D-leagues for those looking to stat whore. Besides it is not fair to limit superior built dots just to match up to unrealistic standards. By doing this you only drive people away from the game. This is a video game and most people play this expecting video game numbers. If people want real NFL type results they can play fantasy football or go outside and play for real.

Originally posted by merenoise
The aim should be to make a football sim that is fun for everyone who builds dots and coordinates. That has absolutely nothing to do with the NFL.

This^^^

Originally posted by Ken1
Nothing angered me in past seasons as much as when the QB I coordinate for threw Pick Sixes. It felt like I was being cheated, because I knew it wasn't anything like real life. Long ago, I felt the same about all the long fumble returns.

But I goddamned guarantee you didn't get your panties in bunch when he threw for 600-700 yds and 8-9 TD's or it was your player returning those fumbles or INT's.

This is not the NFL, it is a game and people pay money for dots and want to see some return out of them, plain and simple. There is no fun in watching dots that do nothing. Also please stop with the poll bullshit. You keep posting the questions but not the results. As far as I remember most questions were always asked in what some would term... confusing manner. Either way they were all from back in the heyday of GLB, means nothing now with less than 1'2 the user base left. If you want to keep citing a poll let's get a new ones with straight forward questions and no fucking crying from there.

Originally posted by cjericho
You can strive for realism all you want but the fact of the matter is that in GLB it is not possible.

But it should be the target.

Originally posted by cjericho
Besides it is not fair to limit superior built dots just to match up to unrealistic standards.

That's why I try to look at averages rather than totals or extremes. Better builds will do better, and worse builds will do worse. And again, whatever is given beyond realism to one type of dot is unfair to other dots.

Originally posted by cjericho
By doing this you only drive people away from the game. This is a video game and most people play this expecting video game numbers.

I can't believe people need to see this poll more than once to get through their heads that that is not true: http://goallineblitz.com/game/poll.pl?poll_id=9 . This is a sim, not a video game. It's a simulation with the ability to watch the game play.

Originally posted by cjericho
If people want real NFL type results they can play fantasy football or go outside and play for real.

They can't build their players in either, nor coach them the way they want, nor play fantasy football outside of football season; and there won't be pro (or college) like results from playing for real, because of the obvious fact that they can't play at or near pro or college level.

Originally posted by Greywolfmeb
But I goddamned guarantee you didn't get your panties in bunch when he threw for 600-700 yds and 8-9 TD's or it was your player returning those fumbles or INT's.


Those games, the blowouts, are not really fun to watch.

And I get enough satisfaction when my player forces a fumble that our team recovers. I don't need it returned for a TD to enjoy it a lot.