Warrior General Games

Originally posted by The Avenger
I think cookie cutter by definition is pick an Archetype (man specialist - CB), cap the mains and voila, now that Archetype will be within 10 SP's in the mains as the other 77 Archetypes in the exact same position on the FA marketplace as the rest of the man specialist CB builds are.

yeah, 10 point differences in attributes are completely insignificant

Originally posted by Catch22
OK.

Catch votes yes.

Motion passed.

That's the kinda attitude that's gonna run paying customers like myself off! This is supposed to be about the customer and getting them to spend money! I've noticed a increase in this type of attitude. Wander how long a restaurant would run if they told you their menu is changing pay for it and eat it or go away!

If noboOriginally posted by Catch22
Pretty set. Bort might make a change or two when coding the project but for the most part what you see is what you are going to get.

Then why even ask for opinions? Too humor us? Did you learn that in customer satisfaction class?

Just make a post saying this is how it's going to be. That's how it's always been.

Originally posted by cubsluver22
That's the kinda attitude that's gonna run paying customers like myself off! This is supposed to be about the customer and getting them to spend money! I've noticed a increase in this type of attitude. Wander how long a restaurant would run if they told you their menu is changing pay for it and eat it or go away!

QFwander

Originally posted by sjmay
How so?

Granted, I really only skimmed etc, but it seems like if a player is gonna select a Coverage CB, as the player type, if you put that up against a coverage CB, doesn't it stand to reason they will have similar builds?

Originally posted by Daudy

It gives us more diversity than the current system because we're able to modify how each position now levels up naturally. So, instead of ALL HBs majoring in a certain skill (say speed), you now have the option to choose something else - as long as it fits within one of the Archetypes available.

For example, if I build a HB now, each level up between level 1-21 would give me 0.33 each in Agility, Speed, Strength, vision, confidence and carrying and also 0.20 in blocking, catching, jumping, stamina and THROWING.

So in essence, EVERYBODY who builds a HB would level up the same at the moment.

With this new system, you get the choice between Agility Carrying Confidence Strength (+.5) and Catching Speed Stamina Vision (+.25) or Agility Carrying Speed Vision (+.5) and Catching Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25) or Agility Catching Speed Vision (+.5) and Carrying Confidence Jumping Stamina (+.25) or Carrying Speed Strength Vision (+.5) and Agility Catching Confidence Stamina (+.25)

Thus, with this new system, you should theoretically be able to build players more specifically tailored towards your intended role for them. AND, you no longer have the same level gains as EVERYBODY ELSE IN THAT ENTIRE POSITION.

See where it's a bit more flexible now?


Admittedly, it's only changing what ALGs you get and also giving you an option towards which SAs you want to be able to recieve a boost (at the cost of recieving a penatly in others) and does nothing towards actually changing the way SPs are added or anything like that. I'd say the ability to choose which bonuses and penalties (or neither in some cases) and how your player levels up is a bigger choice than what we have now.

Also, it means HBs no longer automatically gain throwing as they do now and a few other oddball things with other positions

Originally posted by sjmay
How so?

Granted, I really only skimmed etc, but it seems like if a player is gonna select a Coverage CB, as the player type, if you put that up against a coverage CB, doesn't it stand to reason they will have similar builds?

As opposed to the current CB who uses the same exact ALG's no matter what, you now have four different ALG options for a CB (five if you count returner). You also get to pick a bonus SA - this can be any SA you want that is not in your current trees. Seems like a lot more options to me. What we have now is way more cookie cutter.

Originally posted by Tigam
I'm not reading every post in this thread. Pointless.

What I will say is you should throw this Archetypes out the damn window and just put something into place where you can pick your "X" amount of major gains and "X" amount of minor gains at character creation. You want bonus SA's and negatives if you take it? Fine... Something else that can be chosen at creation. Obviously the negatives can't be chosen, just have to take whatever negative that is combined with whatever positive.

But don't make mold. Allow the players to mold. That's the whole damn point of the sim.

It annoys me to no end that I have to explain this.

no u

My only thing, after reading through as much of this as I could stomach, is that no player should be labeled as such. Granted, the agent would reveal such information, most likely, but that should be their choice. I am just concerned that specialization to this extent will lead to more owner control and less player time. The best teams will load up on specialized talent in certain packages and hinder the enjoyment of player only agents.

Whatever happened to league-based salary caps? I think that is a dimension beyond this idea, but one that needs to be considered within this idea. Once the stadium is maxed, money only matters for equipment. If you made salary caps and less restrictive level caps in the league, it would add an additional level of strategy. Otherwise, you have teams with every type of player archetype for every package they can throw out there. Not very realistic.

Either way, I guess it is a good step forward even if we take a step backwards first.

Originally posted by punkaweedus

+1

Catch22 -- Please explain how this idea is going to create LESS cookie cutter builds. From what I've read in this thread, especially with the bonuses/penalties based on build type selected at player creation, it will actually force agents into selecting certain skills/attributes over others because of the penalties. Sure you COULD accept the penalty and dump points into that skill, but you'd be stupid do to so. This is especially the case with SAs. If I build an elusive HB and dump enough SPs to get 10 in Power Thru, I should have 10 in Power Thru... not be penalized to only 8. In fact it sounds like you're penalizing me for NOT having a cookie cutter elusive HB build.

IMO this player development change is limiting builds (because of attribute bonuses/penalties) rather than allowing user creativity to do whatever they want.

I will say that I do like the idea of allowing an additional SA outside of the two standard trees. This is huge for LBs especially, as the SA trees suck. I'd love to see Superior Vision as a standard SA for LBs.

While I like the idea in theory, this post highlites my concern. Sure, it'd be great to be able to tailor my future players (and current younger players going forward) to the build type that I envisioned for them starting out but the archtype idea now forces me into a cookie cutter build that can't be altered without some issues...

So, in 2 seasons when Bort nerfs the hell out of a specific build (say Speed WR's take another hit) not only is my player build useless, and not only are my future build plans useless, but now I can't even change the player into another style of player without having to endure a hit to some of their attribute gains and SA's that go towards other archtypes.

Not to mention that some builds while built towards one archtype sometimes use skills for other archtypes. As an example, to diminish some of the issues of lower catching and agility I put points into Route Run and Sticky Hands for a Speedster WR...

So... Now hybrid builds, changing builds to fit Bort's whim (and the changes to the sim that come of it) are out the window.

Again, I like this idea in theory, but in practice there are too many issues that will come of it.

Originally posted by Kircdrb
Then why even ask for opinions? Too humor us? Did you learn that in customer satisfaction class?

Just make a post saying this is how it's going to be. That's how it's always been.

He said a few pages ago, if you actually read the thread, that he was giving everyone a heads up on the new change. I hope that's enough for you.

Originally posted by Tigam
I'm not reading every post in this thread. Pointless.

What I will say is you should throw this Archetypes out the damn window and just put something into place where you can pick your "X" amount of major gains and "X" amount of minor gains at character creation. You want bonus SA's and negatives if you take it? Fine... Something else that can be chosen at creation. Obviously the negatives can't be chosen, just have to take whatever negative that is combined with whatever positive.

But don't make mold. Allow the players to mold. That's the whole damn point of the sim.

It annoys me to no end that I have to explain this.

I tend to agree with this, you are anno....oh wait,

No everything above that though,

Actually, isn't this what they are doing, but they are kind of pigeonholing it,

You can select a Pass rushing DE, and his auto gains are there, better than what they were, and his SA's positive and negative are there, but there is nothing preventing you from putting all SP into Tackling....etc or Strength etc...

Originally posted by digitalspirit
Try to join a discussion and all of a sudden I'm arrogant & ignorant? Guess I'll exit this before I get a temp ban.

I didn't say that and I tried to answer your question.

Are the ALGs going to diminish at the same rate as they did before? I only ask because I noticed that some positions, for instance LBs have gone from majors starting at +.33 to majors at +.5

PM would be appreciated but I'll try to dig a reply out of the thread if I can, sorry if I missed it in OP...

Originally posted by Tigam
I'm not reading every post in this thread. Pointless.

What I will say is you should throw this Archetypes out the damn window and just put something into place where you can pick your "X" amount of major gains and "X" amount of minor gains at character creation. You want bonus SA's and negatives if you take it? Fine... Something else that can be chosen at creation. Obviously the negatives can't be chosen, just have to take whatever negative that is combined with whatever positive.

But don't make mold. Allow the players to mold. That's the whole damn point of the sim.

It annoys me to no end that I have to explain this.

That would make more of a cookie cutter system than anything else.