Warrior General Games

Originally posted by snakes22
I haven't read past page 1, what did I miss?

yello think you shouldn't have to build good dots or have good coaching to be competitive.

Just my 2 cents worth, but I don't think that just because players are lvl 69 plus should make them competitive with others players that level. If a person builds a bad player they should not be rewarded by being able to compete with dots far superior to them. I have made plenty of players who did not deserve to play at the pro level nor would I expect them to. If a person wants players at the highest level of the game they need to learn to build players worthy of it, There is so much information and many people willing to help that a person can learn to build good players if they want to.

Originally posted by yello1
That IS what the "box" advertises. Pro Football Simulation. Not "Trying to Get Into Pro Football" simulation.

And, even if you want to treat the lower tiers that Bort has gone back and called "Prep" "University" now to be those lower tiers, then the players STILL have to BECOME pro football players REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL YOU BUILD THEM - because once again the game is not "Trying to Get Into The Pros" simulation.

No one is here paying cash dollars to play Try Outs. Its not what its a sim of. And its not what the market exists for. You dont buy John Maddens Spring Training for a reason.

You can LOL at that all you want, but its reality.

"I didn't make the team" is not an acceptable game result by any standard.

How do you not see how ridiculous you look making comments like the above? How could you possibly think that the game would allow for you to be competitive at the end-game level regardless of how you build your players or how you set your game plans?

It is even more ridiculous that you tried to relate GLB to Madden.

Originally posted by yello1
so its a waste of electrons and finger tendons.

Do you think that makes you look smart? Is that your plan for trying to make people see past your fail?

Originally posted by yello1
And how the feck can you say it has to make build differences neglible? You think the only two possible outcomes in the game are set by God to be BLOW OUT or Coin Toss????

Stop being a fucking pussy... if you want to say fuck then do so... otherwise you look even more like a ridiculous joke by saying things like "feck".

When did I ever say the bold? More specifically, what part of what I have said did your poor reading comprehension skills interpret as that.

Originally posted by yello1
Of COURSE you can make the build differences less extreme and STILL have them matter. All you do is reduce the percentage effects. If right now a 1 strength difference means a 1% chance of a pancake, make it a 0.5% chance or .9% or whatever it needs to be to generate NFL like results and not fantasy never happened on a real football field results. All it takes is changing some numbers in the code.

AGAIN... the bold is why the above continues to be ridiculous. To use extremes in the hopes that you might understand (its a stretch that you might but..), someone is going to build an end game dot with max (somewhere in the 100s) str and tkl and someone is going to build an end game dot with 10 carrying and strength. With your unrealistic vision of a player vs player game, that defender would only force at most 2-3 fumbles on the offensive dot that has completely ignored fumble avoidance. How do you not see how ridiculous it is to suggest that an interaction between those two dots should produce an NFL-like result? You have lost your mind yello.

Originally posted by yello1
And it would help you prove your point about how its the builds and not the system. Or not.

Seriously... I just dont know how to respond to idiotic comments like this. My point is proven by watching the replay... your dots are too slow to make the blocks... what determines how fast a player is??? Oh, thats right... the players build. You just completely fail to comprehend the most basic concepts and the only thing that makes it worse is that you are in utter denial of it.

Again, what makes your system the problem is that you have dots/builds that do not fit the requirements to play those positions. A preemptive for when you ask, yet again, what those requirements are despite the fact that I have told you several times now.


Originally posted by yello1
And yet they still use the same stats, and the same players, in the pros and in GLB no?

Hardly anything (if anything at all) in this game works the way it would in real life. Did you not pay attention when SLZ told you that you need to "adapt" to how the game is played. Continually whining about how the game does not work the way you think it should (and it never will) will never help you team become anything more than the perennial doormat of OPL like it currently is.

Only an insane person would keep plugging in something that is not working, not experiment with ideas that might work, and then have the audacity to complain that it doesnt work.

Originally posted by yello1
What you see in a replay is comparative results, effected by a slew of variables including VAs and SAs and gear. If I see a Guard in a game get blown away speed wise - or the opposite - I really cant draw much from that because I do not know what his build was (STOP, or not, good or not) and the same as to his opponent. Looking at others replays only gets you so much information.

At this point, I hope you never end up understanding what it is that EVERYONE is trying to explain to you... otherwise you would be so embarrassed at how foolish you have looked during this entire discussion that you would never come back. I have pointed out over and over how slow your dots are... is it really that hard for you to figure out how to make them faster so that they may actually be effective on your punt squad? Seriously, I would love to think this is just an elaborate troll attempt on your part (if so well played... you might want to take this route... its really the only way for you to save face) but you just cant make up the idiocy of your posts.

Originally posted by yello1
Well, first off I kinda expected them to lay a block and hold it because the other player is IN FRONT OF THEM to begin with. You shouldnt have to chase down your assignment, you run INTO him face to face and hold him there or knock his ass down. Thats how we did it when I played punt return teams anyway. If he gets past you, you already lost since a block from behind is illegal. I wasnt up front though, maybe its not like that up thar, dont recall. Maybe thats my DL error, but if so its shared by others because that advice about what goes on the DL was from GLB pro successful players.

You have been playing this game for over three years... how do you not know the progression of punts. Of course it is ridiculous, granted it would be even more ridiculous and unrealistic looking to let the return team hold their blocks at the line. Regardless, it has been this way for almost 22 seasons now.. it is not going to change.. stop blaming the game because it doesnt work like you envision it should... take some responsibility and ADAPT.

Originally posted by yello1
Secondly, I have already noted the speeds in use are 120-130 for the non DLs, one 110. Now call me crazy but that seems like a lot to me given that these players have to be built to have other stats high as well both for ST and regular play. Are you saying that you need wide out speed in all of your ST players or you will cough up 6 fumbles a game against good teams???? If so thats pretty crazy stuff. And more evidence of how shitty the simulation is, I might add.

There are 10 blockers on your punt teams... 4 of them have 120-130 speed (probably means only one of them is close to 130... regardless 120-130 speed would have been fast in like season 12 but this is season 22 and I am telling you yet again that is NOT fast... it is just average speed)... 1 player is 110 (not fast all... 30 on the speed script is slow)... and 5 OL players that mostly have 60-70 speed as they hit 22-23 on the speed script (these players have NO... I repeat... NO business being on the punt return team... how hard is that for you to understand... how many times do I have to tell you that... yet they are still on your punt return team). So you really only have 4 dots out of 10 blockers that actually have any business on the punt return team... if that isnt bad enough you put those dots in the worst possible spots for them to have any relevant effect.

I know its hard for you to understand... I know you think the return should slide when 10 attackers are coming at them unblocked... but he doesnt, never has. Your other option is position your blockers such that they can block these coverage players so at least they arent hitting your returner at full speed (eliminating the use of Head Hunter... one factor gone from the ff equation) and at the very least figuring out a way to block the other teams best FF'ers (if you are going to give up big hits dont let it be by the players that are most likely to cause a fumble).

yello... that is basic, simple, common sense stuff. What is so damn hard about that for you... other than you dont give a shit about ST's and want the game to change so that you continue to ignore them without being penalized.


Originally posted by yello1
Well obviously there are extremes, some pre-requisites. But even then the system should have brakes on bad match ups that come into play to simulate what a coach would do in that situation (fair catch all the time, sub in some one else etc).

Instead of focusing on putting governors in the game they need to put their effort into finding a league structure system that doesnt allow for terrible matchups at the end game level (impossible to do this throughout all the levels but who really cares about the minors.. balancing the end-game/pro levels should always be the priority and I think you would agree with that)... a good example would be creating the hemisphere league that would prevent teams like So Cal, Buda and Dev from having to waste their time with teams that just dont get it, like the Miracle, on their schedule.


Originally posted by yello1
However I am talking about someone built as a ball carrier, in the right position and archtype. Yes even with the damn near ALGs alone he should not cough up the ball that many times. The sim should be built to prevent it because the sim is being built to generate realistic results. The very worst build in its position should be your base line bench player at that position, some guy who barely made it into the league. How those guys fare on the field should be how your crummiest possible build should fare.

How many times do people have to tell you that the sim is not and will not ever be built to produce "realistic" results? If you dont like that then do us all a favor and just quit already. Trust me, no one will miss you. You obviously have no valuable insight in this game... playing your team is an obvious waste of time for any of the teams in OPL that are contenders... you are shitting up the best forum in the game with this garbage... what the fuck are you still doing here?

Regarding the bold.. please define said crummy/baseline players (I want builds) for several positions. I want another good laugh!!


There just isnt enough of those to fully describe the amount of fail you continue to show in this discussion. Again, STOP.

Originally posted by McGruffHawk
Originally posted by snakes22

I haven't read past page 1, what did I miss?

yello think you shouldn't have to build good dots or have good coaching to be competitive.

Is losing by 30 points competitive?

Read better.

Originally posted by viking maniac 1
Just my 2 cents worth, but I don't think that just because players are lvl 69 plus should make them competitive with others players that level. If a person builds a bad player they should not be rewarded by being able to compete with dots far superior to them. I have made plenty of players who did not deserve to play at the pro level nor would I expect them to. If a person wants players at the highest level of the game they need to learn to build players worthy of it, There is so much information and many people willing to help that a person can learn to build good players if they want to.

There is a difference between being competitive, which is not what I am asking for, and being blown out by 255 points or other silly ludicrous never happens on a football field statistics.

I am saying that the games code needs to be tightened up to prevent extremely silly outcomes.

I am not saying that a shittly built dot should beat a great build or even a good build.

The gainsaying haters of change in the thread want to paint it that way. But its been made abundantly clear thats not my point at all to anyone that can grasp the english language.

Originally posted by beenlurken
Originally posted by yello1

That IS what the "box" advertises. Pro Football Simulation. Not "Trying to Get Into Pro Football" simulation.

And, even if you want to treat the lower tiers that Bort has gone back and called "Prep" "University" now to be those lower tiers, then the players STILL have to BECOME pro football players REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL YOU BUILD THEM - because once again the game is not "Trying to Get Into The Pros" simulation.

No one is here paying cash dollars to play Try Outs. Its not what its a sim of. And its not what the market exists for. You dont buy John Maddens Spring Training for a reason.

You can LOL at that all you want, but its reality.

"I didn't make the team" is not an acceptable game result by any standard.

How do you not see how ridiculous you look making comments like the above? How could you possibly think that the game would allow for you to be competitive at the end-game level regardless of how you build your players or how you set your game plans?

It is even more ridiculous that you tried to relate GLB to Madden.


Okay do you have a degree of any kind, high school - anything?

English your second language perhaps?

Cause there is nothing in the quote you are replying to that is related in any way shape or form to your response.

Thats been pretty much the drill throughout this discussion.

I didn't say your dot had to be able to WIN in the pros.

But he had to be modeled as a pro player, because thats what the sim is about - playing in the pros.

As noted elsewhere, that can range from bench dwellers on up.

So if your build sucks, he is a bench dweller. Thats not competitive.

Its just not losing the game by 255 points Girl Scout outcomes.

All of which I have already said.

Why dont you try responding to THAT point, that I said, In English.

Originally posted by beenlurken

Stop being a fucking pussy... if you want to say fuck then do so... otherwise you look even more like a ridiculous joke by saying things like "feck".

When did I ever say the bold? More specifically, what part of what I have said did your poor reading comprehension skills interpret as that.

Sorry I don't cuss to your satisfaction you control freak. But I am used to forums with language filters. Shall we start grading each other for style now? Really, where the hell do you get off talking to other people like this? You get beat to the ground alot, or is it just internet balls?

Try to be polite, give it a whirl.

As for your saying that, everything you have said screams it. I suggest toning down the number of forced fumbles and you equate that with removing all motivation to build your dots. Not the slightest recognition of my often repeated point that this is merely about tuning the results, not reversing them or turning the game into checkers with uniform pieces. Its either stay exactly the way the BETA code is, or its making all dots equal according to every point you have made.

Originally posted by
AGAIN... the bold is why the above continues to be ridiculous. To use extremes in the hopes that you might understand (its a stretch that you might but..), someone is going to build an end game dot with max (somewhere in the 100s) str and tkl and someone is going to build an end game dot with 10 carrying and strength. With your unrealistic vision of a player vs player game, that defender would only force at most 2-3 fumbles on the offensive dot that has completely ignored fumble avoidance. How do you not see how ridiculous it is to suggest that an interaction between those two dots should produce an NFL-like result? You have lost your mind yello.

Except of course that you cant have anything close to that extremely bad a build at level 72. ALGs alone would prevent it. And my points are about players building reasonable dots, not intentionally trying to break the system by putting up cupcakes. I've said it before, the caveat is its a returner build not a QB.

Its also ignoring the fact that no matter how lousy a build may be, the carrier will at some point only fair catch, or will tuck and go to the ground rather than be hit by ten tacklers at speed. Points I have made before. Did you miss it in your frothing?

Originally posted by
Seriously... I just dont know how to respond to idiotic comments like this. My point is proven by watching the replay... your dots are too slow to make the blocks... what determines how fast a player is??? Oh, thats right... the players build. You just completely fail to comprehend the most basic concepts and the only thing that makes it worse is that you are in utter denial of it.

And I have noted that my guys have speeds (outside the DL) of 120s to 130, which is not slow. So I am asking what gives, is everyone in GLB somehow able to have 150 speed dots in the ST team at all slots? How is that possible and still allow them to function on the lines? 140 speed doesnt leave alot of room for tackle or agility or strength, after all.

And again the point remains - is the difference not that large? Is this a few points resulting in this great disparity? If so, isnt that a little idiotic? Players that close in performance (130 to 150 being a 13% slower build) shouldnt result in such widely extreme never happened in the NFL outcomes. 40 yard times in the NFL arent that close, and you still do not see 255 games.

Originally posted by
Again, what makes your system the problem is that you have dots/builds that do not fit the requirements to play those positions. A preemptive for when you ask, yet again, what those requirements are despite the fact that I have told you several times now.

Really, you said a number somewhere? Did I miss it?

Originally posted by
Hardly anything (if anything at all) in this game works the way it would in real life. Did you not pay attention when SLZ told you that you need to "adapt" to how the game is played. Continually whining about how the game does not work the way you think it should (and it never will) will never help you team become anything more than the perennial doormat of OPL like it currently is.

Did you miss the part where I told him that he was wrong?

Did you miss the part where I explained that the game is a SIMULATION and that simulations are supposed to try to be as close to the real life subject as they can?

Did you miss where the devs built a forum for suggestions for changes to the simulation and a game mechanic where they invite players to share their thoughts about those suggestions?????

Did you miss the change log that is rife with changes so many that the game is still deemed to be in Beta?

Yes the game IS what it is.

I am merely suggesting it could be something better.

Originally posted by
Only an insane person would keep plugging in something that is not working, not experiment with ideas that might work, and then have the audacity to complain that it doesnt work.

Yeah, um, you do realize that its possible to both ask for change AND try to deal with the system as it is at the same time right?

Not that I can do much about the current crop with plateau. But I am most assuredly going to change the DC whenever I get a straight answer from someone on specifcially what stats are off and whats needed to improve it (as in a speed number and what range of block and strength they need to have - or is that irrelevant?). Assuming I have enough burners on the roster. May not.

Originally posted by
At this point, I hope you never end up understanding what it is that EVERYONE is trying to explain to you... otherwise you would be so embarrassed at how foolish you have looked during this entire discussion that you would never come back. I have pointed out over and over how slow your dots are... is it really that hard for you to figure out how to make them faster so that they may actually be effective on your punt squad? Seriously, I would love to think this is just an elaborate troll attempt on your part (if so well played... you might want to take this route... its really the only way for you to save face) but you just cant make up the idiocy of your posts.

Okay let me try to sum it up.

I tried to put dots that were as fast as possible on ST, but ALSO while keeping strength and blocking and agility in mind as well.

If speed is the only factor, or if some silly high cut off is what matters most, I need to know that fact with specificity because merely asking for faster isnt enough.

I mean JUST saying fast means I could put my Free Safety or Wideouts in at the DL on a PR DC and that would make it all better???? Somehow i suspect thats not the case since they have no blocking skills to speak of. But maybe I am wrong? Only way I can think of to even have a shot of putting something faster than 120 on the line.

See what I mean? Really does require more information to make informed changes.

Originally posted by
You have been playing this game for over three years... how do you not know the progression of punts. Of course it is ridiculous, granted it would be even more ridiculous and unrealistic looking to let the return team hold their blocks at the line. Regardless, it has been this way for almost 22 seasons now.. it is not going to change.. stop blaming the game because it doesnt work like you envision it should... take some responsibility and ADAPT.

Adapt has nothing to do with the main point that the results are too extreme. Thats still the games fault.

Trying to put a better DC on the field that matches the games foibles in its currently broken sim state is, however, what I am trying to do by asking what is sooo wrong with my ST DC chart.

As to why I didnt have this conversation three years ago - suffice it to say that I dont have the spare time to do an indepth research assignment for every aspect of the game. I have been trying to figure out the offense for three seasons and still havent gotten it down (like why other players wideouts catch in double coverage and mine dont, or other QBs pump fake and ruin secondaries with it while my pump fake mostly collects dust and even when it fires has little effect etc). The only reason I was able to devote as much time to ST as I am currently (or was till suddenly replying on the forum became a full time job) is because I finally have an OC to do that job. Only then did I fully notice just how screwed up ST results were.

Originally posted by
There are 10 blockers on your punt teams... 4 of them have 120-130 speed (probably means only one of them is close to 130... regardless 120-130 speed would have been fast in like season 12 but this is season 22 and I am telling you yet again that is NOT fast... it is just average speed)... 1 player is 110 (not fast all... 30 on the speed script is slow)... and 5 OL players that mostly have 60-70 speed as they hit 22-23 on the speed script (these players have NO... I repeat... NO business being on the punt return team... how hard is that for you to understand... how many times do I have to tell you that... yet they are still on your punt return team). So you really only have 4 dots out of 10 blockers that actually have any business on the punt return team... if that isnt bad enough you put those dots in the worst possible spots for them to have any relevant effect.

Thanks thats informative. Now try to understand as I pick that apart and ask for more detail that this is not the first or second time I have asked people for advice on ST DCs, and they pointed me at the DC I use now and you loathe. So I am just trying to make sure I have it right.


I think its more than 4, SEs ERs PPs all are 120+ cept the one 110. And they are all getting blown away too at least on that play and couple others in the last game.

Anyway, I was told to put O Line on the DL slots (and I think to get any blocking talent its what I am reduced to anyway). That I take it is utterly wrong. Or are people building Gs and OTs (non stop) with speeds of 130???

Does blocking not matter? Seems to me it does as I had inadvertently put a FS in on returning and he was swept aside as he should be. Or was that something else?

And wrong place? I put the speediest ones where it seemed logical and that jived with what I was later told. Where SHOULD they be placed?

And where does one get this info from? Because asking around for it on private forums and such got me the DCs I am using now.

Originally posted by
I know its hard for you to understand... I know you think the return should slide when 10 attackers are coming at them unblocked... but he doesnt, never has. Your other option is position your blockers such that they can block these coverage players so at least they arent hitting your returner at full speed (eliminating the use of Head Hunter... one factor gone from the ff equation) and at the very least figuring out a way to block the other teams best FF'ers (if you are going to give up big hits dont let it be by the players that are most likely to cause a fumble).

Okay thats informative as well. But what players are these FFers? And what blockers? I have STOP players with high strength speed and blocking in the PP slots, my best blocking backs and TEs in the SE and ER spots (and who are also my fastest non STOP blockers). I guess I could put more starters in and have more of the same on the DL. But is there some key point where you have to have X speed? Is no other stat key?

And how do you put starters on the ST and still compete in regular downs? Is everyone tossing 15 of the ST Stamina VA on all their dots????

Originally posted by
yello... that is basic, simple, common sense stuff. What is so damn hard about that for you... other than you dont give a shit about ST's and want the game to change so that you continue to ignore them without being penalized.

You arent getting it. The changes I asked for are not to make my ST win. I would still expect them to not get good field position and occasionally fumble the ball. I am just asking the Pro Football Simulator to generate Pro Football Results so I do not lose interest in playing it.

Either way, I do want to improve my understanding of the game and all BS aside this is informative if not quite helpful yet. Still need to know more as noted above. Hate to rush off and put the entire receiving corps on ST play and then - lol oh thats right, we cant make a first down anyway. LOL dam, maybe I should put all my eggs into ST and do what I can to exploit the KR TD silliness while it lasts.

Originally posted by

Instead of focusing on putting governors in the game they need to put their effort into finding a league structure system that doesnt allow for terrible matchups at the end game level (impossible to do this throughout all the levels but who really cares about the minors.. balancing the end-game/pro levels should always be the priority and I think you would agree with that)... a good example would be creating the hemisphere league that would prevent teams like So Cal, Buda and Dev from having to waste their time with teams that just dont get it, like the Miracle, on their schedule.


I do agree with that but not Instead of but in addition to.

Really truly, the game needs to allow players to compete at the top tiers - OR it needs to seriousl change its marketing. Because no one walking into this game is going to be expecting that he needs to spend two years building a dot and then will have only a small chance of playing in the top tier league. Let alone being blown out 255-0 etc while trying to get there.

What would be ideal, from a not losing customers perspective, would be to toss the entire "building from pop warner up" concept out the window. You build a Pro Dot, and he is either good or bad as you build him but he is in the pros.

And then have ONE tier of teams across the board - with the NFL like range of play so that the results are not the silly blow outs they are now but just regular ole Sunday NFL blow outs.

That way everyone gets to play whats on the package.

You would just have to have a 64 March Madness like playoff tourney of the league winners AFTER the league seasons to have a single World League champ, this being accelerated (game a day, 64-32-16-8-4-2) on days 41-46 during everyone elses post season.

That way everyone is in the big leagues and not feeling so far away from the main point of the game.

And maybe with accelerated builds Bort will be leaning that way to some extent. Would be nice. The minors are a waste of time, in every sense of the word.

But I digress.

Originally posted by
How many times do people have to tell you that the sim is not and will not ever be built to produce "realistic" results? If you dont like that then do us all a favor and just quit already. Trust me, no one will miss you. You obviously have no valuable insight in this game... playing your team is an obvious waste of time for any of the teams in OPL that are contenders... you are shitting up the best forum in the game with this garbage... what the fuck are you still doing here?

LOL I think Bort would miss my millions for one.

And the whole point is that it SHOULD be about realism, thats what sims are for.

As for the hate, sorry dude.

And its only in this forum because they locked the other thread and I wanted to reply to that interesting point. Really did not want to get all into it again. If you like, I would be very happy to let it drop - we both at this point have said our pieces ten times plus and are never going to agree - and just discuss what does and doesnt work in GLB ST in your opinion.

Originally posted by
Regarding the bold.. please define said crummy/baseline players (I want builds) for several positions. I want another good laugh!!

Well havent anything prepared on the point, and am not going to take the time to fake build one, but the idea is that if someone walks into the game and builds a player at a position and puts his SPs into the primary and secondary attributes and trains them as well (aka hes not spending SPs on throwing for a linebacker), then when that guy wanders on to the field he should be respectable - he shouldnt miss every tackle or be pancaked 30 times or give up ten fumbles or do any of the things the current Super Bowl versus Girl Scouts system generates. He doesnt have to be a winner, if he doesnt do the fine tuning of training just right and all that jazz to make a top build he shouldnt be. But he should not generate results that make the game a joke.

And a team of them should lose by 30 or 40 points, not 200.

I can't see why you or any of you have such rabidly silly reactions to that. You cant possibly be happy with a sim that has such ludicrous crap in the game results as GLB tends to have? Do you enjoy watching a game replay thats 100 to 0? I should think this is an obvious problem that we should all wish to see fixed.

I certainly shouldnt think it would result in the childish personal attacks that it instead garnered.

I know its the internet and no one can MAKE you be polite. But we should all try all the same. And I know I have gotten heated in the face of such attacks as well. But lets cut it the feck - excuse me - the fuck out, shall we?

Originally posted by yello1
Cause there is nothing in the quote you are replying to that is related in any way shape or form to your response.

Hey check this out....

Originally posted by yello1
I didn't say your dot had to be able to WIN in the pros.

I never said/implied/alluded that you said "your dot had to be able to WIN in the pros"...

Where do you come up with this stuff... you off your pills... skipping sessions with your shrink? Get it together dude.


Originally posted by yello1
Thats been pretty much the drill throughout this discussion.

I know... it gets tiresome correcting you... would you please just stop. I guess you figure you cant make it any worse on yourself so you just keep going... you bed is already made... there is no turning back now.


Originally posted by yello1
Its just not losing the game by 255 points Girl Scout outcomes.

Continuing to mention this does NOT make it any less irrelevant to our discussion. Games between finely tuned end-game teams and CPU teams or teams with young dots that are grossly outleveled and put 0 effort toward game planning should get destroyed. Who gives a shit as to whether it is a 50 point blowout or a 255+ blowout... the game fails by allowing those teams to play elite end-game teams... NOT that the sim allows for such a lopsided score

Besides... All Good Things has proven that 255 point games would not exist if the vast majority didnt suck at game planning. Well unless we are talking about a really young team (one which would be worse than a scaled CPU team) going up against a good end-game team.

The problem is not simulation related... it is just plain old human error.

Originally posted by McGruffHawk
Originally posted by yello1

Stop

That bolded part is the problem.

The problem is that you HAVE to have that.




I agree that in an ideal world, you would have that. Equally well-built teams coached by equally well-prepared coordinators. But there is an inevitable human element to this game that is revealed when you get level 45 dots going against level 72 dots. Or level 72 dots whose builders haven't bothered to learn the process going against level 72 dots whose builders have done the legwork and/or been coached to build good dots. Or lame-duck coordinators that point the finger at the developers rather than figure out how to get better going against quality coordinators who have used networks to learn and get better and respond to game changes.

Bottom line is that when two teams go against each other that are well-built and well-coached, it is usually a good game that closely (although the scores and stats are extreme to accomodate the stat-hogs) simulates professional football.

The problem isn't the SIM (which is not to say that there aren't some issues there). The problem is a league structure that can't mitigate the human element of under-leveled/poorly built/poorly coached teams. If they can fix the league structure, then much of the problems you are bringing up go away.


Without question there should not be 45 level players in the level 72 league and all of that. I agree.

But within the 72 level league among the 72 level players, the outcomes should be such that the results are in a believable real world range. Those 72 levels are all NFL Players, because thats what the sim is (or PRo whatever players - pro being the operative word). The game should not be built such that the worst build has the physique of a Banker and the game skills of a Cheerleader. Without a point spent he should be a walk on undrafted free agent build and be worked up from there essentially. Not because we deserve to be coddled but because the game is about Pro football - not banking or cheerleading. You would not open a game of chess and find a deck of cards, after all. The pieces of GLB need to fit the motiff of the game as well.

As for making human coaches teams peform inside the realm of human coached NFL teams yes thats not easy. It requires a few new or improved features (note these would be to avoid blow outs, not reverse an advantage. The winner should still win and the bad team still lose. Just not by so many points and bad stats).

- one is that the players be able to correct for bad game plans, which they do in real life. Missed coverages picked up, receivers work to get open, QBs audible away bad play calls, etc. To the extent thats realistic of course.

- The second feature would be an improved game day coaching adjustment system. The Auto Adjust needs to be better explained and expanded upon, and more options in the play building as well, and perhaps even some automated adjustments that prevent silly blow out games (like a defensive set thats givin up a TD every time its on the field being shifted away from to basic settings even if you dont have it set up for that).

- And finally the easiest way to prevent insane blow out scores is to adjust player reactions. If your returner has fumbled a return, his chance of fumbling decreases because he is covering up more, with an offset that he is less likely to break a tackle or make quick cuts etc. The more fumbles the greater this effect. Or perhaps if a player has given up a sack he is less likely to miss a block, because he is adjusting to the moves of that other player or is looking for that blitzer in the formation (basically learned responses to the other teams game plans, somethingt that happens in real life but is absent from GLB). And most importantly from the 255-0 aspect, Garbage Time where the winning team takes the foot off the gas because they are winning and see no reason to bust it and risk injury etc to run up the score. You could even throw in a score braking play calling AI that starts running it up the middle at a 40-50 point winning gap to reflect that most coaches will not run up the score to make an opponent look bad.

LOTS of ways to do it, really. But whatever is chosen it needs to be done if GLB wants to retain more players.

Originally posted by beenlurken
Originally posted by yello1

Cause there is nothing in the quote you are replying to that is related in any way shape or form to your response.

Hey check this out....

Originally posted by yello1

I didn't say your dot had to be able to WIN in the pros.

I never said/implied/alluded that you said "your dot had to be able to WIN in the pros"...

Where do you come up with this stuff... you off your pills... skipping sessions with your shrink? Get it together dude.


Originally posted by yello1

Thats been pretty much the drill throughout this discussion.

I know... it gets tiresome correcting you... would you please just stop. I guess you figure you cant make it any worse on yourself so you just keep going... you bed is already made... there is no turning back now.


Originally posted by yello1

Its just not losing the game by 255 points Girl Scout outcomes.

Continuing to mention this does NOT make it any less irrelevant to our discussion. Games between finely tuned end-game teams and CPU teams or teams with young dots that are grossly outleveled and put 0 effort toward game planning should get destroyed. Who gives a shit as to whether it is a 50 point blowout or a 255+ blowout... the game fails by allowing those teams to play elite end-game teams... NOT that the sim allows for such a lopsided score

Besides... All Good Things has proven that 255 point games would not exist if the vast majority didnt suck at game planning. Well unless we are talking about a really young team (one which would be worse than a scaled CPU team) going up against a good end-game team.

The problem is not simulation related... it is just plain old human error.



I for one care about the 255 point scores and all the other silly stats mentioned. Its all about the game looking like the game we are simulating.

I dont like Aliens in my cowboy movies, or 310 bowling scores in my bowling sims. If I am playing a period or subject sim I want the sim to stick the period or subject.

Doesnt matter to you, thats fine.

Does to me.

And given that every 255 point win has a 255 point loser and same same for the other lopsided stats, I suspect it matters to alot of other players.

They would probably be posting here to agree with me.

But they already quit over it.

Thats not a good thing for the game.

Originally posted by yello1
Try to be polite, give it a whirl.

The whole reason we are shitting up the OPL forum with this thread is because of your impoliteness.

Originally posted by yello1
As for your saying that, everything you have said screams it. I suggest toning down the number of forced fumbles and you equate that with removing all motivation to build your dots. Not the slightest recognition of my often repeated point that this is merely about tuning the results, not reversing them or turning the game into checkers with uniform pieces. Its either stay exactly the way the BETA code is, or its making all dots equal according to every point you have made.

Your suggestion of "toning down" is putting a cap on performance. You are suggesting that the results of an interaction between the absolute best built end game dot and the absolute worst end game dot should equate to no worse than real life statistics. If the difference between extreme builds produces what you define as "realistic" stats where does that leave the difference between the absolute best builds and average builds? If the best FF'er can only force 2-3 fumbles on a ball carrier that has the absolute worst fumble avoidance skills (because by your vision it would be ridiculous to let any player fumble more than that in a game) what does that do to the chances of said FF'er forcing fumbles on an average built player or even an elite player for that matter? You would be making FF'ers a waste of time to build if they are only forcing 4-5 fumbles on 100 tackle seasons where only 1-2 of those are actually recovered for turnovers. There would be no point in making the necessary sacrifices one makes to build that type of player.

Originally posted by yello1
Except of course that you cant have anything close to that extremely bad a build at level 72. ALGs alone would prevent it. And my points are about players building reasonable dots, not intentionally trying to break the system by putting up cupcakes. I've said it before, the caveat is its a returner build not a QB.

Sure you can... ALG's alone will only get carrying and strength to mid 20's at best without training or putting sp's into it... but keep ignoring the point... you are really good at that.

Originally posted by yello1
Its also ignoring the fact that no matter how lousy a build may be, the carrier will at some point only fair catch, or will tuck and go to the ground rather than be hit by ten tacklers at speed. Points I have made before. Did you miss it in your frothing?

LOL if you think I am mad... If anything this is fun getting you to continually make a fool of yourself... please keep entertaining us!!

Explain how bort should code a "tuck scenario" or how he might code a "fair catch scenario". Certainly you think it would be ridiculous to allow a team to call fair catch on every punt/ko and completely eliminate a part of the game. And if we went to the fair catch system would you suggest that Bort also make catching relevant to fielding the kicks... would only be fair to make returners get their catching up to at least 60 (and even that shouldnt make returners immune to muffing catches) to prevent them from dropping the kicks and cause turnovers that way.

Regardless, like I and others have said over and over, that you refuse to listen to, is that the reason your returner is getting gang tackled is because of your inefficiencies. You dont want your returner to get pummeled then fix your strategy and it wont happen. How many times do we have to tell you that?

Originally posted by yello1
And I have noted that my guys have speeds (outside the DL) of 120s to 130, which is not slow.

Again, I am telling you that is slow... watching the replay strongly confirms that. Again, I suggest you either improve the areas of those builds that increase speed (its not just the speed attribute) or use faster players. Also, I love how you ignore that I pointed out that those players only make up 4 of your 10 blockers on the punt team and that you have put them in the worst possible positions to be successful... so again, this game is not just about builds, it is about strategy too, and again your strategy sucks.

Originally posted by yello1
140 speed doesnt leave alot of room for tackle or agility or strength, after all.

140 speed equates to roughly 82ish base speed (assuming of course you put all of your equipment into speed)... you really trying to tell me it is difficult to get base speed that high by end build and still have plenty of room to make a stud hard hitter? Do you know anything about building?

Originally posted by yello1
And again the point remains - is the difference not that large? Is this a few points resulting in this great disparity? If so, isnt that a little idiotic? Players that close in performance (130 to 150 being a 13% slower build) shouldnt result in such widely extreme never happened in the NFL outcomes. 40 yard times in the NFL arent that close, and you still do not see 255 games.

"a few points" Do you have any understanding of the effective sp value difference between a 130 speed player and 150 speed player? I hope you are not suggesting placing diminishing returns on performance once attributes reach a certain level so that we all end up building the same players. Allow us to build to extremes allows for risk/reward... it also allows for variability among builds.

Stop comparing this game to the NFL... Each time you bring up 255 games as a means of support you look more and more like a fool.

Originally posted by yello1
Originally posted by

Again, what makes your system the problem is that you have dots/builds that do not fit the requirements to play those positions. A preemptive for when you ask, yet again, what those requirements are despite the fact that I have told you several times now.

Really, you said a number somewhere? Did I miss it?

Since when does requirements = numbers? If you insist on numbers, the speed script will tell you the only important numbers you need to know. If you still dont understand that then you are beyond help.


Originally posted by yello1
Did you miss the part where I told him that he was wrong?

I did not miss the part where you failed at explaining how you thought he was wrong.

Originally posted by yello1
Did you miss the part where I explained that the game is a SIMULATION and that simulations are supposed to try to be as close to the real life subject as they can?

Did you miss all the times that everyone has told you that it is not Borts goal to simulate real life stats/scores? When will you accept that?

Originally posted by yello1
I am merely suggesting it could be something better.

You are suggesting something that would ruin this game... there is a reason people still laugh at Ken1 for making the same suggestions many seasons ago that you are making now.

Originally posted by yello1
Yeah, um, you do realize that its possible to both ask for change AND try to deal with the system as it is at the same time right?

Not that I can do much about the current crop with plateau. But I am most assuredly going to change the DC whenever I get a straight answer from someone on specifcially what stats are off and whats needed to improve it (as in a speed number and what range of block and strength they need to have - or is that irrelevant?). Assuming I have enough burners on the roster. May not.

If you had been actually trying to deal with the system (gain an understanding of it), you wouldnt be having problems, you wouldnt be making ridiculous suggestions.

Why cant you figure stuff out for yourself? I have already given you enough information to do this in 5 minutes with watching a few replays. It is just amazing to me that someone who claims to be so intelligent continually asks to be spoon fed.

Originally posted by yello1

Okay let me try to sum it up.

I tried to put dots that were as fast as possible on ST, but ALSO while keeping strength and blocking and agility in mind as well.

If speed is the only factor, or if some silly high cut off is what matters most, I need to know that fact with specificity because merely asking for faster isnt enough.

I mean JUST saying fast means I could put my Free Safety or Wideouts in at the DL on a PR DC and that would make it all better???? Somehow i suspect thats not the case since they have no blocking skills to speak of. But maybe I am wrong? Only way I can think of to even have a shot of putting something faster than 120 on the line.

See what I mean? Really does require more information to make informed changes.

Sounds to me like you have an idea on a potential fix. Why have you not tried it yet? Why must you wait for someone else to confirm it for you? Is that how you play this game... just doing what every one tells you to do? Half the fun of this game is experimenting and trying new ideas to try and get an edge over the competition. If you are just doing what everyone tells you to do... its like using last years model... you will never be successful playing like that. Right now your punt return team sucks... trying anything would be better than just using the same failed strategy. Obviously I have given you more than enough information to get you going on how to fix the problem. Now you new to try a few of your ideas and start narrowing down just exactly what the problem is.

I cant believe I had to explain that to you.

Originally posted by yello1
As to why I didnt have this conversation three years ago - suffice it to say that I dont have the spare time to do an indepth research assignment for every aspect of the game. I have been trying to figure out the offense for three seasons and still havent gotten it down (like why other players wideouts catch in double coverage and mine dont, or other QBs pump fake and ruin secondaries with it while my pump fake mostly collects dust and even when it fires has little effect etc). The only reason I was able to devote as much time to ST as I am currently (or was till suddenly replying on the forum became a full time job) is because I finally have an OC to do that job. Only then did I fully notice just how screwed up ST results were.

Again, who are you to complain about something being broken that you admittedly know nothing about?


Originally posted by yello1
Thanks thats informative. Now try to understand as I pick that apart and ask for more detail that this is not the first or second time I have asked people for advice on ST DCs, and they pointed me at the DC I use now and you loathe. So I am just trying to make sure I have it right.


I think its more than 4, SEs ERs PPs all are 120+ cept the one 110. And they are all getting blown away too at least on that play and couple others in the last game.

Anyway, I was told to put O Line on the DL slots (and I think to get any blocking talent its what I am reduced to anyway). That I take it is utterly wrong. Or are people building Gs and OTs (non stop) with speeds of 130???

Does blocking not matter? Seems to me it does as I had inadvertently put a FS in on returning and he was swept aside as he should be. Or was that something else?

And wrong place? I put the speediest ones where it seemed logical and that jived with what I was later told. Where SHOULD they be placed?

And where does one get this info from? Because asking around for it on private forums and such got me the DCs I am using now.

Where/how do you think I learned the answers to those questions? Why wont you watch what successful ST untis are doing. You could answer almost every single one of those questions yourself if you would just spend 5 minutes watching some replays of successful ST units... but you would rather miserably fail at arguing about things with me that you admittedly do not understand.

Originally posted by yello1
Okay thats informative as well. But what players are these FFers? And what blockers? I have STOP players with high strength speed and blocking in the PP slots, my best blocking backs and TEs in the SE and ER spots (and who are also my fastest non STOP blockers). I guess I could put more starters in and have more of the same on the DL. But is there some key point where you have to have X speed? Is no other stat key?

Why are you so opposed to experimenting for yourself? Why does everything have to be spelled out for you to try something new, especially when what you are doing is not working. Do you not get any satisfaction out of figuring things out for yourself?


Originally posted by yello1
You arent getting it. The changes I asked for are not to make my ST win. I would still expect them to not get good field position and occasionally fumble the ball. I am just asking the Pro Football Simulator to generate Pro Football Results so I do not lose interest in playing it.

I never said you were making the suggestion to make your ST win. I do think you are making the suggestion so that your ST wont be penalized as much for not having any clue how it works (the bold confirms this). Again if you want the Pro Football Simulator to produce Pro Football Results then you need to make sure that everything that you are doing is of Pro quality. I am telling you again, your ST's is not of Pro quality (again lvl 72 =/= Pro quality... having no clue about ST strategy =/= Pro Quality)



Originally posted by yello1
Really truly, the game needs to allow players to compete at the top tiers - OR it needs to seriousl change its marketing. Because no one walking into this game is going to be expecting that he needs to spend two years building a dot and then will have only a small chance of playing in the top tier league. Let alone being blown out 255-0 etc while trying to get there.

Please show me an end game level team that is trying and is still losing 255-0. It is beyond me why you continue to use that as support of your position. I can show you a team (All Good Things) using almost all CPU players (worse than a team with all end game human players) that has yet to give up 100 points in a game in the two seasons they have been CPU. If they can be "competitive" with CPU players then teams who are less competitive have no one to blame but themselves.

There is a reason they have a Casual league... why do you insist on playing the most challenging format in GLB when Casual is much better suited to your availability/commitment to this game?

Also, Bort is accelerating the building process it will no longer take 2 years to build dots... from what they say it will take roughly half that amount of time.

Originally posted by yello1
And maybe with accelerated builds Bort will be leaning that way to some extent. Would be nice. The minors are a waste of time, in every sense of the word.

That is exactly what is happening... that is the best we will ever get.

Originally posted by yello1
Well havent anything prepared on the point, and am not going to take the time to fake build one, but the idea is that if someone walks into the game and builds a player at a position and puts his SPs into the primary and secondary attributes and trains them as well (aka hes not spending SPs on throwing for a linebacker), then when that guy wanders on to the field he should be respectable - he shouldnt miss every tackle or be pancaked 30 times or give up ten fumbles or do any of the things the current Super Bowl versus Girl Scouts system generates. He doesnt have to be a winner, if he doesnt do the fine tuning of training just right and all that jazz to make a top build he shouldnt be. But he should not generate results that make the game a joke.

All Good Things prove that poor game planning produces what you call "Girl Scout" results. Again, they are CPU players that keep it within 30 or 40 points of all but a few teams.. they even compete with/beat teams they have no business doing so with.

Originally posted by yello1
And a team of them should lose by 30 or 40 points, not 200.

Please show me an end-game team that is actually trying that is losing by 200 points...

Originally posted by yello1
I can't see why you or any of you have such rabidly silly reactions to that. You cant possibly be happy with a sim that has such ludicrous crap in the game results as GLB tends to have? Do you enjoy watching a game replay thats 100 to 0? I should think this is an obvious problem that we should all wish to see fixed.

You just are unable to see that the problem with ludicrous crap is not the sim... its a problem with league structure.

You want my honest opinion... both of these game were equally boring and equally a waste of our time...

http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1667234
http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1667042

At the beginning of the season... looking at the schedule... those were automatic wins... games that would require no effort to win. I would just assume not to have had to sim those games. I just dont see the point of handicapping the scores so that we win a game we are certain to win by only 20-0 instead of 63-0. There is still no point to that game.. I have no idea why you would feel any better about that loss... except that it gives you a false impression of how good your team is.




Originally posted by yello1
But lets cut it the feck - excuse me - the fuck out, shall we?

Can we make a private forum for you two?

Originally posted by yello1
Without question there should not be 45 level players in the level 72 league and all of that. I agree.

But within the 72 level league among the 72 level players, the outcomes should be such that the results are in a believable real world range. Those 72 levels are all NFL Players, because thats what the sim is (or PRo whatever players - pro being the operative word). The game should not be built such that the worst build has the physique of a Banker and the game skills of a Cheerleader. Without a point spent he should be a walk on undrafted free agent build and be worked up from there essentially. Not because we deserve to be coddled but because the game is about Pro football - not banking or cheerleading. You would not open a game of chess and find a deck of cards, after all. The pieces of GLB need to fit the motiff of the game as well.

As for making human coaches teams peform inside the realm of human coached NFL teams yes thats not easy. It requires a few new or improved features (note these would be to avoid blow outs, not reverse an advantage. The winner should still win and the bad team still lose. Just not by so many points and bad stats).

- one is that the players be able to correct for bad game plans, which they do in real life. Missed coverages picked up, receivers work to get open, QBs audible away bad play calls, etc. To the extent thats realistic of course.

- The second feature would be an improved game day coaching adjustment system. The Auto Adjust needs to be better explained and expanded upon, and more options in the play building as well, and perhaps even some automated adjustments that prevent silly blow out games (like a defensive set thats givin up a TD every time its on the field being shifted away from to basic settings even if you dont have it set up for that).

- And finally the easiest way to prevent insane blow out scores is to adjust player reactions. If your returner has fumbled a return, his chance of fumbling decreases because he is covering up more, with an offset that he is less likely to break a tackle or make quick cuts etc. The more fumbles the greater this effect. Or perhaps if a player has given up a sack he is less likely to miss a block, because he is adjusting to the moves of that other player or is looking for that blitzer in the formation (basically learned responses to the other teams game plans, somethingt that happens in real life but is absent from GLB). And most importantly from the 255-0 aspect, Garbage Time where the winning team takes the foot off the gas because they are winning and see no reason to bust it and risk injury etc to run up the score. You could even throw in a score braking play calling AI that starts running it up the middle at a 40-50 point winning gap to reflect that most coaches will not run up the score to make an opponent look bad.

LOTS of ways to do it, really. But whatever is chosen it needs to be done if GLB wants to retain more players.




255-0 scores are always the result of underleveled teams. So throw those out the window and your argument can be more focused. 255-0 scores are NOT sim-related. They are meaningless towards your argument about SIM problems.

So now the focus is on level 72 dots against level 72 dots. Right?

Given that, your belief is that a poorly built and poorly coached GLB team should be able to "compete" with a well-built and well-coached GLB team. Right? Have I got that.

You equate a poorly built GLB player a bench warmer or even a UDFA. Right?

Would you agree that SOME GLB teams are built of mainly poorly built players? We've all seen them. Some of us have even tried to coach them. I was a team owner through season 8 with what was for 7 seasons a very successful team. But we didn't have a clue about how to build players. In season eight the first round of slow-builders reached the pro leagues, and their dots were SOOOO much better built that we didn't stand a chance. We could "compete" but winning was out of the question because the whole team was pretty poorly built.

So basically we are left with the possibility (frequently seen) of whole teams of bench warmers with poor coaching going up against Super-bowl quality teams with excellent coaches. I think if you were to play in the NFL and trot out a team full of backup quality players against a Superbowl team, you'd get lopsided scores the vast majority of the time. In fact, as a fan of the Seattle Seahawks, thats exactly what we saw often last year. Our team was 45% rookies, street walkons and UDFA's. Even the starters were backup quality players on a good team. And for a long stretch of time we were getting beat by 25-35 points a game.

Crappy NFL teams by and large are NOT competitive against quality NFL teams. They win most of their games by playing each other. Pretty much the same thing that happens in GLB.

In short, throwing out 255-0 scores, GLB is probably closer to reality than you are arguing. The problem is that your team is a team on bench warmers playing against Superbowl contenders, and rather than face that reality and deal with it, you are wanting to blame the SIM.

BTW, the game is not a simulation. It is a MMORPG where the simulation is an important tool to measure the quality of your players. But the simulation is not the point. Building a football player is the point.

Originally posted by beenlurken


The whole reason we are shitting up the OPL forum with this thread is because of your impoliteness.

You might want to review the record.

I made a complaint about a broken game fixture, and then a suggestion that it be fixed.

You decided to attack me for that for some inexplicable reason.

Its not impolite to have an opinion about a game function.