Alex Wondertramp
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Originally posted by BradyFTW
Originally posted by Alex Wondertramp
Originally posted by myztic
Originally posted by Alex Wondertramp
Originally posted by tobias funke
There are too many variables in play between the (usually) 3 WR sets and the corners to be able to say that a 'shutdown' corner shut down his side just because he didn't have any tackles. Just because a player doesn't get the ball isn't proof positive that he wasn't open or that he wouldn't have caught it. Some things can be related to a QBs targeting settings, the tactics used by the other team in terms of S/M/L passes, or the percentage of passes to the TE or the HB.
The only thing I can say with complete certainty is that you're all chumps compared to Vernon.
well then chump....then what is the point of even having this thread....there are way to many variables for people to decide all pros for any position....I was just pointing out there are different ways to evaluate player performance...since this game is made up of zeros and ones and not reality...all we have to go on are the numbers...interpret them however you want
Calm down there big guy... We can't all be as good as Vernon!
speak for yourself pilgrim...some of us are just as good...and maybe even better...
Vernon > You. Don't get me wrong, you're a very good corner, but shit. You're no Vernon. Hell, I'm no Vernon either. Nobody's Vernon, because Vernon's the best.
hey its ok i expect you guys to have your boys back, my whole original point was that there are different ways to evaluate cbs, vernon is a good back, if you think hes the best thats fine, tell me why you think hes the best and we'll discuss. No need to disrespect anybody here. We've had a season full of name calling and melodrama, it would be nice for once to have a civil discussion. Something more then Im better and you suck. We got all of season 3 for that. There are other good backs, who else belongs in this conversation and why?
Originally posted by Alex Wondertramp
Originally posted by myztic
Originally posted by Alex Wondertramp
Originally posted by tobias funke
There are too many variables in play between the (usually) 3 WR sets and the corners to be able to say that a 'shutdown' corner shut down his side just because he didn't have any tackles. Just because a player doesn't get the ball isn't proof positive that he wasn't open or that he wouldn't have caught it. Some things can be related to a QBs targeting settings, the tactics used by the other team in terms of S/M/L passes, or the percentage of passes to the TE or the HB.
The only thing I can say with complete certainty is that you're all chumps compared to Vernon.
well then chump....then what is the point of even having this thread....there are way to many variables for people to decide all pros for any position....I was just pointing out there are different ways to evaluate player performance...since this game is made up of zeros and ones and not reality...all we have to go on are the numbers...interpret them however you want
Calm down there big guy... We can't all be as good as Vernon!
speak for yourself pilgrim...some of us are just as good...and maybe even better...
Vernon > You. Don't get me wrong, you're a very good corner, but shit. You're no Vernon. Hell, I'm no Vernon either. Nobody's Vernon, because Vernon's the best.
hey its ok i expect you guys to have your boys back, my whole original point was that there are different ways to evaluate cbs, vernon is a good back, if you think hes the best thats fine, tell me why you think hes the best and we'll discuss. No need to disrespect anybody here. We've had a season full of name calling and melodrama, it would be nice for once to have a civil discussion. Something more then Im better and you suck. We got all of season 3 for that. There are other good backs, who else belongs in this conversation and why?
RTS
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It would be nice if Bort could throw in a 'Poll' function into the forums That way we could just vote as we should. Discussion will never reveal an all pro anything as everyone will always have their favorites. Voting.. now that's how we'll figure this out. Otherwise I just don't see this thread actually accomplishing anything.
BradyFTW
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No arguments there- 53 PDs is damn good by any measure. If you're a starting CB, you're going to get thrown at, and that's that. This isn't the NFL, where teams can make a conscious decision not to throw at you. Once GLB has a "Don't throw at (CB name here) under ANY circumstances" checkbox, maybe we can start looking at the position like that (fewer PDs and tackles as a positive). For now, PDs and interceptions are good metrics. I'd also hesitate to look at tackles as a negative, with my CB being a good example of why. I'd estimate that 2/3 of his tackles came on special teams or run support, plus I also don't see the point in calling tackling a guy for a 3-5 yard gain on 3rd and 7 a negative, or coming over to make a tackle on someone else's guy, which does happen. Without seeing the circumstances around the tackle, you can't really judge it either way. That's before you even add in the different responsibilities of zone CBs vs. man-to-man CBs.
There are definitely a bunch of ways to do it, and the only truly effective way to measure a CB's worth is to watch every single play he participated in, then weigh the strength of the rest of the defense around him. In the mean time, we'll have to go with imperfect measurements, gut reactions, and empirical evidence of how important he was to his team. That's why we're so gung-ho about Vernon. One can make a legitimate argument that NEBP had the most dominant defense in the league this year (you can make a similar argument about several other teams as well, but NEBP is definitely top-tier), and Vernon was by far the most indispensable player on that defense.
There are definitely a bunch of ways to do it, and the only truly effective way to measure a CB's worth is to watch every single play he participated in, then weigh the strength of the rest of the defense around him. In the mean time, we'll have to go with imperfect measurements, gut reactions, and empirical evidence of how important he was to his team. That's why we're so gung-ho about Vernon. One can make a legitimate argument that NEBP had the most dominant defense in the league this year (you can make a similar argument about several other teams as well, but NEBP is definitely top-tier), and Vernon was by far the most indispensable player on that defense.
Bill G
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My player is a Free Safety, a position nobody is talking about by the way, and I don't have any skin in this game except to mention that a player in the secondary values Passes Defensed over tackles, and value INTs over all.
A tackle probably means the opps gained yards, a PD means no gain, and an INT means we get the ball. How you weight them personally is up to you, but any self-respecting cover man will tell you that a PD is worth more than a tackle.
A tackle probably means the opps gained yards, a PD means no gain, and an INT means we get the ball. How you weight them personally is up to you, but any self-respecting cover man will tell you that a PD is worth more than a tackle.
HaplosDog
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Originally posted by Bill G
My player is a Free Safety, a position nobody is talking about by the way, and I don't have any skin in this game except to mention that a player in the secondary values Passes Defensed over tackles, and value INTs over all.
A tackle probably means the opps gained yards, a PD means no gain, and an INT means we get the ball. How you weight them personally is up to you, but any self-respecting cover man will tell you that a PD is worth more than a tackle.
The problem with a PD in this game is that the receiver might have still caught the ball. I remember looking at a CB's stat in one game where he had a high number of PDs. I was impressed. Then I watched the game. At least half of that CB's PDs were still caught by the WR.
My player is a Free Safety, a position nobody is talking about by the way, and I don't have any skin in this game except to mention that a player in the secondary values Passes Defensed over tackles, and value INTs over all.
A tackle probably means the opps gained yards, a PD means no gain, and an INT means we get the ball. How you weight them personally is up to you, but any self-respecting cover man will tell you that a PD is worth more than a tackle.
The problem with a PD in this game is that the receiver might have still caught the ball. I remember looking at a CB's stat in one game where he had a high number of PDs. I was impressed. Then I watched the game. At least half of that CB's PDs were still caught by the WR.
RTS
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Originally posted by HaplosDog
The problem with a PD in this game is that the receiver might have still caught the ball. I remember looking at a CB's stat in one game where he had a high number of PDs. I was impressed. Then I watched the game. At least half of that CB's PDs were still caught by the WR.
That's an excellent point... since you have to watch the 'game film' for every play to determine which ones were actual PD's they almost need another category. Something like '# throws swatted down'.
The problem with a PD in this game is that the receiver might have still caught the ball. I remember looking at a CB's stat in one game where he had a high number of PDs. I was impressed. Then I watched the game. At least half of that CB's PDs were still caught by the WR.
That's an excellent point... since you have to watch the 'game film' for every play to determine which ones were actual PD's they almost need another category. Something like '# throws swatted down'.
Alex Wondertramp
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Originally posted by killertoad
It's almost next season. Will this nonsense have a conclusion anytime soon?
hes right....all this really doesnt mean anything unless we have a set process in place to make these selections....maybe we should determine that so we know how to do it for the upcoming season...
It's almost next season. Will this nonsense have a conclusion anytime soon?
hes right....all this really doesnt mean anything unless we have a set process in place to make these selections....maybe we should determine that so we know how to do it for the upcoming season...
Last edited Jun 8, 2008 05:44:19
JBennett23
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I doubt many players from Fiji's amazing D will be there. It really was full team efforts.
bigpimpin123
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haha the season starts tomorrow. you are all pro-bowlers if that makes you feel better
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