Warrior General Games

Repeatedly telling me I am missing your point, isn't going to make your point correct. Because you're so certain your initial assumption is correct, you are ignoring my point.

Originally posted by Melancholy
but look at those plays I posted. they are significantly different than most pitches I've seen. I do think your defense did better than any other d he's faced, but you seriously think those pitches look 'normal'?

Yes, they not only look normal to me, they look beautiful. I think those pitches look like I disrupted the flow of the offense. By the way, would this be a good time to mention Vendetta shut down more than just the pitch? I took my defense and dictated Sanderval's offense, as opposed to reacting to Sanderval's offense.

Will I always be able to pull this off? Heck no. Should Sanderval abandon the pitch? That's up to him. But if he does, that'll be one less play I have to scheme against when playing the Michigan Panthers.

Originally posted by JerryStegmaier
Repeatedly telling me I am missing your point, isn't going to make your point correct. Because you're so certain your initial assumption is correct, you are ignoring my point.

Originally posted by Melancholy

but look at those plays I posted. they are significantly different than most pitches I've seen. I do think your defense did better than any other d he's faced, but you seriously think those pitches look 'normal'?

Yes, they not only look normal to me, they look beautiful. I think those pitches look like I disrupted the flow of the offense. By the way, would this be a good time to mention Vendetta shut down more than just the pitch? I took my defense and dictated Sanderval's offense, as opposed to reacting to Sanderval's offense.

Will I always be able to pull this off? Heck no. Should Sanderval abandon the pitch? That's up to him. But if he does, that'll be one less play I have to scheme against when playing the Michigan Panthers.

laugh, talk about ignoring the point. The only reason I repeatedly tell you that you miss my point is because I have not only acknowledged that your defense played well, I've used it to improve my argument. All you have done is repeatedly tell me the same thing and now tell me that you can quote a small section of my previous post and call it out as my main point when, in fact, I explicitly mentioned later that I had previously overstated the importance of that point.

{edit}
I realized that I admitted my mistake in a later post, so it is possible you quoted that without reading the next one. but if not, I can go ahead and say it again. Your Defense did a Good Job. I had NO intention of claiming otherwise. I, in no way, intended to belittle your excellent play during the game. It was also intended to be editorial, not matter of fact. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.

Originally posted by Melancholy
1) The behavior that Sanderval relied on (or at least benefited from) is no longer in the game. (I can go out and find all the supporting posts if you really want me to).
2) Since guys in the west are obviously game planning against the pitch, it is in Sanderval's best interest to attempt to find a new offensive strategy if he is to succeed against them.

In response to the first.. wth, it wasn't even a run oriented offense so that rationale automatically out. As the OC I can tell you that we do not "rely on" the pitch (you can tell me that we don't, but again, i build the schemes).. it's just happens to work well at times. People shut down our pitch all the time. Hell New Jersey shut down our pitch at times & at times it worked.. just like every play we run. So it's not a surprise that Rochester was more consistent in doing it as Rochester is a better team defensively. I call other runs regularly & at times the engine calls the pitch more, at times it calls it less, sometimes the engine picks it more than i'd prefer, sometimes it picks it less than I want. People just don't remember the non pitch plays or they assume that every pitch play was intentional for that specific situation. The fact that you even believe that means you fell victim to the system, because the system lies... and i know it lies because I taught it to lie.

Originally posted by binestar

I'd wager we're a tougher defense than you have gone against this season.
Exactly. Just because they did it & no one else has (even if they think they can) doesn't make it impossible.

And I assure you, the pitch play was near the bottom of the list of things I wanted to get out of the scrimmage. It was a non issue. Your post has more about my pitch play than my own forum post game post..it's probably more than i've seen about my own pitches all season anywhere combined. So that's the extent of my concern over the pitch.

On the second.. No offense, but you're talking as if you have some sort of input in our offensive strategy & the west defensive strategies. What idiot isn't game planning the pitch? or the off tackle, or the inside run.. or the outside run? I wish i could say I was playing western teams because I wanted to see their secret pitch defense, but really.. I just find Binestar amusing & I like Jerry & Nole & a few other guys on the team, and i know that either way the game went Binestar would be cool about it, and he was pragmatic beyond my expecations... and I'm playing the Heat because I like Hoax & find him to be likable... I don't really know many other west team owners very well other than JD (who i thought is occupied), or i'd probably have considered playing them. Aside from the Bone crushers (who asked us), all our scrims are teams with people I have GLB ties to in some form or fashion.. so again.. you over analyzed.

And as much as it's appreciated it you're trying way too hard to justify a loss that doesn't need justifying, even if the results were unexpected. It's this simple.. We had a bad game (which we were looong overdue for), against a good team, & when that happens, things will get ugly.

And yes..when you tell (too strong.. read: strongly imply) someone they only won because the game AI changed & the other team has a one dimensional offense.. it sounds pretty much like you're trying to take away from their win. They won by 30+ points..(which on one else has done in some time) how many points does it take before it was just their defense?

And for your advice.. that's nice & all, but you're making huge assumptions about what you believe I do in my offense & what my plans are.


Dammit I had plans to do stuff before the Heat game.. guess I got an excuse if we lose that one now.

That was probably over reaction to all the posts about this.. but I just get home from work & found myself reading things like "Sanderval does this or that.." & thinking.. wth no i don't & then it got out of hand..

And i guess now every time we don't have a pitch heavy game this thread will be credited for it.. le sigh..

Jeezus, I leave this forum for a few minutes and people are tearing at each other's throats.

Thanks for wanting to scrim Sanderval..but yeah very busy and I'm not tipping anything to any East team as there is always a possibility i'll see them in the finals...

And with a mind like yours I'm not letting you see me in action against YOUR team.

Just checkin in BBB.

Hopefully the changes I've been working on work out tomorrow.

Originally posted by Sanderval
That was probably over reaction to all the posts about this.. but I just get home from work & found myself reading things like "Sanderval does this or that.." & thinking.. wth no i don't & then it got out of hand..

And i guess now every time we don't have a pitch heavy game this thread will be credited for it.. le sigh..

yup. i plan on looking at everyone of your box scores from now on and posting every time you don't pitch 50% of your rushing attempts.

Not to be rude, but as a team that constantly takes it in the tailpipe from Mich...

I was under the impression they were a passing team.

(Not that their rushing isn't effective, stats don't lie.. I just don't view it as their primary weapon)

Originally posted by j4mzf0rm0d
Not to be rude, but as a team that constantly takes it in the tailpipe from Mich...

I was under the impression they were a passing team.

(Not that their rushing isn't effective, stats don't lie.. I just don't view it as their primary weapon)

Their chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... their *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

i don't really want to be involved in this nonsense, but listen:

there _were_ ai changes, and a couple of them drastically changed certain
parts of the game. to say "that's not the case" is wrong. there's no
question as to whether pitches are different now. they are. bort said
so, hundreds of others have seen it.

and cubes/voodoo was BEFORE pitches were nudged back towards normalcy,
so to say that game was unaffected is 100% fallacy. to say that
mich/roch isn't different than it would've been a week ago is also,
you guessed it, 100% fallacy, but at least it was semi-closer-to-old-style.
more importantly, mich/roch happened in the same ai environment as we're
in now, so might as well go with that flow and get used to it. voodoo/cubes,
on the other hand, did not.

no one ever said one word about rochester not deserving the win, nor that
michigan is a one trick pony. no one. not once. take comments in
context -- no one's attacking anyone's strategy. it's _another_ factor,
not the _only_ factor. to ignore either factor isn't a matter of opinion,
it's straight up incorrect.

congrats, rochester, on the win vs the east's best. sanderval: you're
a dick for letting us down! and yes, of course that's a joke.

now let's group hug and go out for ice cream.

Originally posted by j4mzf0rm0d
Not to be rude, but as a team that constantly takes it in the tailpipe from Mich...

I was under the impression they were a passing team.

(Not that their rushing isn't effective, stats don't lie.. I just don't view it as their primary weapon)

I agree with this statement.

Originally posted by tcl
sanderval: you're
a dick for letting us down! and yes, of course that's a joke.


It's probably true in more ways than I know or care to admit.. but i'll take a fudge dipped waffle cone if you're buyin

Originally posted by tcl
i don't really want to be involved in this nonsense, but listen:


Not the best way to get someone to listen to you.

Look, I (Rochester DC) asked Sanderval (Michigan Panthers Owner & OC) if he'd prepared for the game, or if he was trying something new. I asked Sanderval this question so I could better evaluate the play-by-play of my defense.

It was really that simple. End of story.

Then Melancholy steps in and believes he understands what Sanderval and I are about and explains how we're wrong. Sanderval and I never cared about all the stuff Melancholy brought up, and I'm sorry I responded to him. We just wanted to evaluate our teams post-scrimmage. And now you're going to step in for your teammate. But first you declare all this "nonsense" before asking us to listen to you ...

... I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, and after your opening line I really don't care.

that's actually not what happened at all, but i'm not surprised
you don't understand that since you don't read nor comprehend posts.
at least not ones you think are attacks directed at you, even when
they're not. if you were to review the posts up til now, you'd see
no one has attacked you, nor your defensive strategy. (until this
paragraph right now, at least, but being insulting still isn't the
theme of this reply).

let me dumb it down for you, since you still don't get it: the game
changed on the morning of 8/24.

then it changed again between 8/24 and 8/25.

there is no dispute to either of those 2 previous statements.

melancholy was trying to be _helpful_ by pointing that out as an additional
factor in the results of your game and others' games. you, more or less,
said: that's not a factor -- we just planned that defensive strategy.

you're wrong. it _is_ a factor. so is your defensive strategy. are
you saying you planned a defensive strategy that took into account all
the game engine changes that happened 1 day before your game? that'd be
quite a feat, if so.

that's all he's saying. that's all i'm saying. for you to repeatedly
argue against it is foolish. it's not an opinion. it's not subjective.
that's what you're wrong about. what you're not wrong about is saying
tactics is (also) a factor.

so when you say you're trying to evaluate a game, which i assume is also
evaluated in the context of other games you've played, you cannot properly
do such an evaluation without taking into consideration that running
(especially pitches) changed, and passing changed. but hey, the game
engine is meaningless, right? tactics can overcome bort's development
every time?

but i wish you well in your eval -- hopefully you'll keep that train of
thought until at least 9/3.

sorry to the rest of the forum for being a bit prickly.


edit: well, i don't know if that's "all" that melancholy is saying --
he can speak for himself.

blah. now i'm part of the nonsense. alright, sorry all.
back to work...

C^3!