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Forum > Goal Line Blitz > Why are all the bad builders mad about ALGs?
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WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Pena_FIN
This wouldn't change the nature of training, if 100% would still be +1 at any cap. You'd still want to train from 0% to 99% with the least amount of training points as possible, and roll it over at the next cap, just as it is now.


This is easily a small enough thing to be a non-issue. Most people still train their primaries while pumping. I would argue you either dont understand the impact (read sp gained) from rolling over an attribute (no offense meant). The only time it gave aparticularly sizeable advantage was back when it was unpopular to train attributes above the softcap so they get an atty to 99 percent, stop training it but then like 8-cap the atty and roll it over then, giving a 7 sp gain in this example. When you are training the whole way above the caps while spending sp you gain 1 sp max from this lolstuff if you really want to count that.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Fwiw trainings nature currently exists due to hot and cold spots at each cap along with maximizing algs. My earlier post solves both pretty easily.
 
Pena_FIN
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN

This is easily a small enough thing to be a non-issue.

Fwiw trainings nature currently exists due to hot and cold spots at each cap along with maximizing algs. My earlier post solves both pretty easily.


I agree with these points. It would greatly reduce the gap between good and bad builders, probably enough for it to a non-issue. All I'm saying is that there would still be a way to get more skill points with proper planning and better understanding of the build mechanics.
 
SlashNDash
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Holy groupthink batman...

ALG's in their current form are bad for GLB because they cause a completely counter-intuitive way to allocate points in your dot for the first several months of a build. This is BAD because new players want to make fun engaging decisions on their allocation of SP for their new dots. Instead they go on the forums, get told their build is shit, and get told to pump SP's into 1 attribute for 3+ months otherwise their dot is worthless.

This creates a SIGNIFICANT barrier to entry and is one (of several) reasons that GLB's userbase is forever declining. Fwiw ALG's themselves aren't the devil, but ALG's that don't keep a constant SP value (rather than a constant attribute value) are.

Also fwiw, I understand player building pretty well and on a personal level I am ok with how player building works, but I am also aware that it does not need to be this way to engage the current userbase, so an option where we don't alienate new customers would be far more ideal.

At the top levels of dot-building CURRENTLY, people end up with very similarly efficient builds, such that the difference between dots is the choices that are made (allocation of resources) rather than the ability to train/allocate resources efficently (since all the top builders in the game do so very well).

ALG's in their current forum drive away current players, while not giving any real advantage between top dot builders. Rather they give an advantage for top dot builders over those that are worse. We could still have top dot-builders in a math-nerdless world, though they would likely need to be additions to the SA system (if not the attribute system as well). Changes will never happen, bort has made his bed, and GLB will go down the current path regardless. I'm just saying it probably isn't ideal.

Oh and before peeps dismiss my post as "wise is a nube".... I have the highest EL full 4AE dot in GLB's history i believe. So obv I have some idea about something.


 
burn_209
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Wise is completely right. Its not as much about it being difficult much as it is about not really being able to play the game until the later levels. Those that say suck it up are just putting their success above the betterment of the game which will go soon if this continues.

But as it was stated above it doesnt really matter because its not going to change. we can only hope they get rid of it or tweak it in the future games
 
ezra_
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If we have peewee leagues, why can't we have a pro or mid league that is a one a done too? Split it off from regular builder teams. At 70% of flex what is the difference? Let people make the dots in a VPB style thing and call it good.
 
jdbolick
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I have explained this far too many times to you before.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
ALG's in their current form are bad for GLB because they cause a completely counter-intuitive way to allocate points in your dot for the first several months of a build. This is BAD because new players want to make fun engaging decisions on their allocation of SP for their new dots. Instead they go on the forums, get told their build is shit, and get told to pump SP's into 1 attribute for 3+ months otherwise their dot is worthless.

This is utterly false on many levels. First, most new people don't go on the forums. I don't think I posted in or even read public forums for the first four or six months. Secondly, anti-ALG people rant all the time about how building that way makes a dot less successful than it could be at lower levels, so wouldn't that mean that new people who don't build that way could actually have more successful dots early on when they're first getting exposed to the game? Lastly, we all had to go through the process of learning how to build better. Someone not doing it "right" the first time is a good thing, otherwise we wouldn't still be here trying to perfect our approach. New people can learn the same way that new people always learned. I didn't start in s1, dpride didn't start until s6 or something, and snakes started much later than that.

Originally posted by
This creates a SIGNIFICANT barrier to entry and is one (of several) reasons that GLB's userbase is forever declining.

This is also a complete myth. New GLB users cratered not that long after the game entered beta, and well before "slow-building" was prevalent. Meanwhile it's pretty obvious that the complexity of the player building system and the pursuit of a better build than you made before is a huge, and probably main, reason why we're still here.

Originally posted by
Also fwiw, I understand player building pretty well

Eh, I don't think you do. What's the best dot you've ever built? You point to your HB, but pushing speed to a ridiculous extreme at the cost of everything else doesn't make you a good builder by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by
ALG's in their current forum drive away current players, while not giving any real advantage between top dot builders.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd think this given that you being terrible at the WL must make everyone look equally out of your league, but it's not the case. Successful coordinators can tell you that there absolutely is a difference between the top WL roster talent and the average WL roster talent. Coordination, VAs, and such might have an even bigger effect, but the talent difference is there.

Originally posted by
Rather they give an advantage for top dot builders over those that are worse.

Which it should. If it didn't, we wouldn't still be here. Watching dot replays isn't so much fun that people would do so for five years if player building wasn't such a challenge.
 
coachingubigr
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How did it feel to get pwned by bolick?
 
Dub J
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Seems more like jd trolled himself, tbh.

 
Nokturnus
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Late one night after a dinner date my parents were killed by ALGs. Since that day I've always sworn vengeance tbh.
 
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Originally posted by Pena_FIN
They probably want to use their skill points as they get them, to make their dots better right now, and not hurt their end game potential while doing so. They want to build balanced dots for all levels. But in order to achive that, GLB would have to get rid of training as well. I've never seen anyone say "training killed GLB".


You dont need balanced dots to be good at all levels. And you donīt have to hurt your endbuild if you want to be good right now. You just need to understand the sim and how it works at your current level and use the propper AI for this level and you can easily win easily at all levels.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=624

won 5 gold and 6 silver of the 8 seasons on the way up (all in elite), +2 GLB tournaments.

I only really gameplanned for 1 Game on Offense - the WL playin game and did some pseaudo gameplanning (15minutes) for maybe 5-6 playoff games at the lower levels. And I always had tons of unsused SP, VP (and still have it for some dots)
 
WiSeIVIaN
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jd, replying to your multi-quote replies is the biggest pain in the ass in GLB. I'm going to do it because I hate you, but please understand that the format of your responses makes me hate you more....as intended?....

Originally posted by jdbolick

This is utterly false on many levels. First, most new people don't go on the forums. I don't think I posted in or even read public forums for the first four or six months. Secondly, anti-ALG people rant all the time about how building that way makes a dot less successful than it could be at lower levels, so wouldn't that mean that new people who don't build that way could actually have more successful dots early on when they're first getting exposed to the game? Lastly, we all had to go through the process of learning how to build better. Someone not doing it "right" the first time is a good thing, otherwise we wouldn't still be here trying to perfect our approach. New people can learn the same way that new people always learned. I didn't start in s1, dpride didn't start until s6 or something, and snakes started much later than that.


Most people don't go into the forums at all? You are playing fast and loose with assumptions. The fact is anyone who starts playing this game and asks for advice (either from a friend who brought them to the game, or on the forums) is quickly taught that this game isn't fun since there are not early-game build options. Secondly, I don't give a fuck if the current building methods give the best L10 dots (for some spots like WR they certainly do not btw), what matters is the lack of early-game build options without ruining builds. This is what drives new players away, stop missing the point. I can't bring the people I know in real life who love football into GLB because it'd be impossible for me to get them started building correctly without them losing interest because the game is stupid (which it absolutely is when you aren't already pot-committed until L79 as we all are). Stop missing the point.

Lastly, I don't give a fuck if 3 people started later in GLB and are still here. The FACT is that MOST of us who are still here came in the first few seasons of GLB. Why? because GLB was fun and exciting with those early game decisions and played to our love of football. There is nothing about pumping their first attribute to 84 over the first couple seasons that makes football players like this game. Making early-game build choices would allow new players to gain that magic when playing the game.

Originally posted by jd
This is also a complete myth. New GLB users cratered not that long after the game entered beta, and well before "slow-building" was prevalent. Meanwhile it's pretty obvious that the complexity of the player building system and the pursuit of a better build than you made before is a huge, and probably main, reason why we're still here.


Complete myth? New users declined, mostly because GLB's only way of being spread was (crappy) referral links via football forums, which in the first couple seasons ran dry. A complete lack of advertising didn't help. With that said, there were still some new users for the first 10 seasons or so, which has slowed to nil now. I had real life friends I brought into the game in early GLB. Now it would be impossible for me to do so due to how players are built and how un-engaging player building is at early levels for new players.

All current/old users will leave eventually, as we've seen by GLB's decline in userbase. Catering to old "this is why I'm here" users and alienating new users simply ensures the games demise. Most old users are still here simply due to the way recycled flex works. GLB building processes have stagnated (do you honestly believe your new dots are to be built more efficiently than your d80 dots?). You can still make better dots with better build choices, but its not as if there are breakthroughs now on player building for efficiency. And building better dots via build choices would still exist in my proposed solution, which should be the point of this game.

For some reason scumbags like you think this game is fun because you know how to build dots efficiently and other people don't. There are a lot more people that build non-WL quality dots than WL-quality dots, so again this is GLB catering to the wrong market.

Originally posted by jd

Eh, I don't think you do. What's the best dot you've ever built? You point to your HB, but pushing speed to a ridiculous extreme at the cost of everything else doesn't make you a good builder by any stretch of the imagination.


Meh... I also currently have a WL left tackle who's given up 2 hurries and 0 sacks though 9 games, along with in the past having a blitz LB and pass rush DE that have had WL success. While I don't have a ton of dots, those I do have that hit FA get WL offers and tend to do well in WL. Am I one of the best 5 dot builders in GLB? No, though this isn't helped by me finding dot-building to be pretty boring (not that my proposed changes would alleviate that boredom, this thread isn't about that). But to imply I don't know how to build good dots is clearly incorrect.

Originally posted by jd

t doesn't surprise me that you'd think this given that you being terrible at the WL must make everyone look equally out of your league, but it's not the case. Successful coordinators can tell you that there absolutely is a difference between the top WL roster talent and the average WL roster talent. Coordination, VAs, and such might have an even bigger effect, but the talent difference is there.


Lol I like how every thread I participate in comes to this. My team's WL success or lack thereof has nothing to do with this thread or my position in it. As a non-network owner I do my best recruiting and I get what I get. With that said the Hedgehogs WL record is more due coordinators (imo) given the number of dots on my teams who have past and future WL success.

Originally posted by jd

Which it should. If it didn't, we wouldn't still be here. Watching dot replays isn't so much fun that people would do so for five years if player building wasn't such a challenge.


You say we as if your brothers don't by-and-large no longer buy flex, and as if they do not quit the game daily. We are GLB's past, not its future jd. And as clearly the smartest man in GLB who has mastered efficient dotbuilding, clearly you are not here beacuse there are still challenges in dot building efficiency. Rather you are here because you're self-righeous and enjoy the advantage you currently hold. Most who are here do not have that advantage, so to say they are here for the same reason as you is clearly wrong.

With that said, I don't care if you'd get pissed by them making dot-building more intuitive and somewhat "simpler". You'd stick around because you are flex invested, but regardless old users like me and you are a ticking timebomb to eventually stop buying flex or outright leave the game, so catering to these users instead of new lifeblood is moronic.
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With that all said, I understand GLB has made its decisions and I do not expect change. Still you implying that change is bad just proves a lack of either objective viewpoint, or understanding of the situation, on your part.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Disastermaster
You dont need balanced dots to be good at all levels. And you donīt have to hurt your endbuild if you want to be good right now. You just need to understand the sim and how it works at your current level and use the propper AI for this level and you can easily win easily at all levels.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=624

won 5 gold and 6 silver of the 8 seasons on the way up (all in elite), +2 GLB tournaments.

I only really gameplanned for 1 Game on Offense - the WL playin game and did some pseaudo gameplanning (15minutes) for maybe 5-6 playoff games at the lower levels. And I always had tons of unsused SP, VP (and still have it for some dots)


I don't care what makes dots best at early levels. I care that new players are engaged and allowed to make those choices without having worthless dots. Congrats tho, gj, etc.

Fwiw most people that don't power pump atty's currently are clearly the bad dot builders in GLB, which doesn't help your argument, plus as you get to the higher minors that dot build efficiency is gonna be pretty trumping.
 
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by coachingubigr
How did it feel to get pwned by bolick?


I'll let you know if it happens one day.
 
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I don't care what makes dots best at early levels. I care that new players are engaged and allowed to make those choices without having worthless dots. Congrats tho, gj, etc.

Fwiw most people that don't power pump atty's currently are clearly the bad dot builders in GLB, which doesn't help your argument, plus as you get to the higher minors that dot build efficiency is gonna be pretty trumping.


Häh?
the argument I quoted was that people want to have balanced and effecient dots at all levels. I showed him that you donīt need to have balanced builds to hve success at all levels and can dominate from buttom to top and that a real team strategy and direction with good AIs for the different level still beat teams that are in win now modus and have balanced their builds and spending SP in SA early.

I donīt argue with you that the build system is complicated, but it isnīt that complicated that you canīt understand it if you are able to read a little bit and think about what you are doing. It is for sure not new user friendly, but in most games you will make some mistakes in your first try and once you get a better understanding how the game works, you will do better.
 
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