Warrior General Games

omg don't ever try to do law.

logical fallacy =/= contradiction.

an equation is not the only way of establishing right and wrong. read the certainty implied within your statements vs. the converse i presented.

you minoring in philosophy does not make it more or less related to psychology. that means you minored in philosophy and have the ability to connect disciplines. welcome to undergrad.

further, your insistence on point of view is a mislead argument. while i won't disagree with your reasoning there, the simple fact is you are presenting the debate as if it fit into that mold when it most assuredly does not.

Originally posted by Worker 3
(although a lvl 72+ CB with 115-120 speed should be able to handle a 140+ speed WR, which is what most speed WRs are at right now, fairly well.)


Originally posted by whatje
fwiw, 120 speed CBs can't handle 140 speed WRs very well at all.


Originally posted by whatje

120 CBs have trouble with crossing and vertical routes against WRs that fast from what i've noticed...and since that accounts for basically all the routes an OC will use a 140+ speed WR on, 120 is probably too slow if you ever expect to cover those guys.

Originally posted by Worker 3
actually, a 120 speed CB will be able to keep up with a 140 WR on vertical routes (have to remember that pretty much as soon as that ball is thrown, that CB has 140+ speed too... BH ftw). as LH said, its primarily the crossing routes that they will have issues with, and at that point, its going to be hard to keep up with them no matter how high your speed is.

Originally posted by whatje
except they don't. but ok. --- to be clear, this is in reference to "actually, a 120 CB will be able to keep up with a 140 WR on vertical routes".

Originally posted by Worker 3
i know the builds of a few WL CBs, and i dont see them getting burnt near as often as you make it sound like it happens.

Originally posted by whatje

I'm not trying to suggest you get burned 100% of the time...but getting burned 5-10 times a game is pretty bad and that's a given with the scenarios you're suggesting.

Originally posted by Worker 3
no where near 5-10 times a game. have to remember that these speedsters are more like snails half way through the 2nd quarter. they get burnt maybe 2-5 times, and only one of those is probably going for a TD.

also have to remember that because speedsters get so tired and slow after the first half, it makes it infinite times easier to cover them which means more problems than its worth for the 7-14 points the offense gets out of it, imo.

i dont plan on it

im pretty sure it does. if something is false, it is a contradiction.

philosophy and psychology are really almost exactly the same when you get to the core of what they are. they both deal largely with why we believe what we do and how they influence our lives.

i dont see how it doesnt. we are dealing with what is essentially unknowns. i can assure you that i can link just as many, (if not more) plays of 120 CBs not getting burned by 140 speed WRs than you could post links of 120 speed CBs actually getting burned by 140 speed WRs. and im sure the same thing is true for CBs getting getting blow up on sweeps.

-and to your little clarification between quotes... again thats because of BH. as soon as that ball is thrown the CB has just as much speed as the WR.

i think you're under the auspices that because you saw something once, or even a few times, that it is true all of the time. i am suggesting, quite simply, that 120 speed CBs will not always be able to handle 140 speed WRs, and decided to introduce the alternative to crossing routes -- streaks -- as one way in which they get beat. i think that both of us can agree that speedsters tend to be used on either crossing routes or routes down the field.

by establishing (which you did) that 120 speed CBs cannot handle these routes multiple times per game, i am, in fact correct. there's no matter of opinion as to whether or not this happens, simply a conclusion that we both established; even established independently. i am not arguing for or against the relative worth of that reality, which you seem to have mistakenly assumed i am doing.

so, ultimately, thank you for presenting your background in psychology and philosophy. i'm sure it will serve you well, though in this case it seems to have been an irrelevant introduction. your opinion, as you said, can be whatever the hell you like. and your opinion of whether getting beat a handful of times per game is worth the added value of being able to play the run, possession WRs, etc. is also yours to enjoy. i am not, and have not, argued with that.

Originally posted by Worker 3

im pretty sure it does. if something is false, it is a contradiction.

philosophy and psychology are really almost exactly the same when you get to the core of what they are. they both deal largely with why we believe what we do and how they influence our lives.

i dont see how it doesnt. we are dealing with what is essentially unknowns. i can assure you that i can link just as many, (if not more) plays of 120 CBs not getting burned by 140 speed WRs than you could post links of 120 speed CBs actually getting burned by 140 speed WRs. and im sure the same thing is true for CBs getting getting blow up on sweeps.

1) lolno.
2) lolno again.
3) /whoosh.

and i can agree with the first portion of your last significant post, but earlier you said Originally posted by
there's a method that works not horribly and one that has huge flaws in it that gets exploited consistently. the method i'm touting is the former. the method you are suggesting is the later. it isnt consistently if it happens only a small handful of times a game. consistent is it happening over and over and over again without fail. consistency is six sigma. now if CBs got burned in the first quarter, then i would agree with you, but again, i it is no where near as much as you claim... and if you said, its every crossing route in the early portion of the game (in which case i would say, and have said, it hardly matters how much speed you have, and in that way you are actually wrong), i would agree with you, but it is no where near every time on vertical routes. the CB has an advantage in that he has a small cushion, and it takes a while for the WR to make up for that cushion, and by the time he starts encroaching on breaking that cushion and getting past the CB, more times than not, in my experience, the QB has thrown the ball already and both the CB and WR are scooting along at 140+ speed which means the WR wont be gaining any more ground.

for the second part, i never agrued that it didnt happen, i merely argued the number of times that it happens. you say it happens more than i say it happens, and since we can both link numerous games where it went our way, neither of us are right or wrong,and thusly, we have opinions.

for the third, i still think it is completely relevant. but if you dont see it, well i guess we will have to agree to disagree. people think in different ways. we can chalk it up to that.

as for the second post

1.) a fallacy is a contradiction of what is (like saying the earth is flat is a classic logical fallacy), and if it contradicts what is (aka is true) you can assume that if its wrong. so if it is a fallacy it is wrong. transitive property

2.) which is exactly why many psych and philosophy classes study aristotle, descarte, pascal, socrates, and plato... they simply study what they said in different ways. philosophy focuses on why and what, and psychology is more why we think why and what, and then you can cycle it back to philosophy and ask why it is that we are asking these questions to begin with, and then go back to psychology. they are very similar.

3.) BH

ok, dude bro.

also lol to #3....i'm not disagreeing with BH, i'm amused by the fact that you keep making the same error.

A+ thread. Would read again.

If I could chime in:

1. Top WL offenses almost exclusively use very high speed receivers. You basically can't single cover these receivers with a sub-120 speed corner--they'll get torched for a touchdown over and over. 120 speed corners can occasionally be successful, and will actually perform very well against the mediocre teams who don't have elite speed receivers (so they look really good in Pro leagues and against the worse WL teams, for example), but they're disastrous when facing a passing attack like that of the Blaze/Alpine/Indy/Saigon/etc.

2. As a cornerback, if you want to play at the highest levels of the game you better be able to cover the fastest WRs in the game. Otherwise you're a liability.

3. People aren't sacrificing attributes in order to pump speed to high levels on corners. They're sacrificing SAs. I love Swat Ball and Super Vision as much as the next guy, but they're both pretty much irrelevant if you're too slow to stay with the WR in the first place.

4. Most top WL passing attacks don't use routes with a bunch of cuts in them. The vast majority of relevant WR routes are streaks or slants, which is why CB agility is so much less important than speed these days.

5. The stamina argument (WRs will be running slower as the game progresses) doesn't hold whatsoever. A top passing attack will use 6-7 WRs, and most have (imo) 55+ stamina. In fact, speed WRs probably average more stamina than cornerbacks, and teams carry at least as many on their rosters. If anything, corners have to be faster to avoid getting burned more as the game progresses.

1. last time i saw the builds of some the blaze's CBs (about a season and a half - 2 seasons ago ago... i cant imagine they are too much different, especially with extended plateau, but i will admit there is some room for error since i didnt keep track of the player names... but even beyond the blaze, i know a few builds of other random WL CBs), they had about 120 speed, and as i watched the games against saigon and alpine form last season, i didnt see thier CBs getting burned on streaks. i saw them giving up plays from playing on aggressive (they did lead WL in INTs), but were not getting killed for monstrous TDs or burned for large gains.

2. youre also a liability if you cant tackle.

3. i guess thats another explanation for it... one that i cant argue with too much in the current meta game, but in the future when you see much more build diversity in WRs, i dont think you will be able to skimp on SAs.

4. well i touched on streaks earlier, but the reason crossing routes are (or were so good) is because they eliminated the cushion that CBs have. instead of having to go through the cuhsion to get seperation, they simple cut it out the equation and avoid the CB all together, essentially eliminating any advantage the CB had. now that CBs will play the inside shoulder im hoping this should be fixed for the most part.

5. i dont know how many WRs slow aschit played with, but he was done after the first quarter, and he had close to 60 stamina.... and he cheated lol

and im not saying that fast CBs dont have a place. i think every team should have one or two... im just saying that if your entire CB corps consists of these faster CBs, it is going to bite you (especially since, again imo, i dont see too much need for much more than 120 speed atm)... similar to having all slower CBs. there needs to be a mix, especially in the future with WRs ranging from 90 strength to 100 jumping to 160 speed. you can have all the speed in the world, but if you cant jump or tackle for crap when faced by the other types of WRs (which granted will probably only account for half, if even that) of the WRs you will face), then you are going to have problems.

77/77/77/68/68/60/50/50/50
spd/agi/vis/jumping/str/tck/con/sta/cat
+16spd/agi/vis
deflect pass%/SV/SDC/MT%
???

Originally posted by Darren McFadden
77/77/77/68/68/60/50/50/50
spd/agi/vis/jumping/str/tck/con/sta/cat
+16spd/agi/vis
deflect pass%/SV/SDC/MT%
???

Your saying to split equipment 3 ways? That would be sub 100 speed and agility

Originally posted by Worker 3
1. last time i saw the builds of some the blaze's CBs (about a season and a half - 2 seasons ago ago... i cant imagine they are too much different, especially with extended plateau, but i will admit there is some room for error since i didnt keep track of the player names... but even beyond the blaze, i know a few builds of other random WL CBs), they had about 120 speed, and as i watched the games against saigon and alpine form last season, i didnt see thier CBs getting burned on streaks. i saw them giving up plays from playing on aggressive (they did lead WL in INTs), but were not getting killed for monstrous TDs or burned for large gains.

2. youre also a liability if you cant tackle.

3. i guess thats another explanation for it... one that i cant argue with too much in the current meta game, but in the future when you see much more build diversity in WRs, i dont think you will be able to skimp on SAs.

4. well i touched on streaks earlier, but the reason crossing routes are (or were so good) is because they eliminated the cushion that CBs have. instead of having to go through the cuhsion to get seperation, they simple cut it out the equation and avoid the CB all together, essentially eliminating any advantage the CB had. now that CBs will play the inside shoulder im hoping this should be fixed for the most part.

5. i dont know how many WRs slow aschit played with, but he was done after the first quarter, and he had close to 60 stamina.... and he cheated lol

and im not saying that fast CBs dont have a place. i think every team should have one or two... im just saying that if your entire CB corps consists of these faster CBs, it is going to bite you (especially since, again imo, i dont see too much need for much more than 120 speed atm)... similar to having all slower CBs. there needs to be a mix, especially in the future with WRs ranging from 90 strength to 100 jumping to 160 speed. you can have all the speed in the world, but if you cant jump or tackle for crap when faced by the other types of WRs (which granted will probably only account for half, if even that) of the WRs you will face), then you are going to have problems.

1. Every CB on the Blaze has over 125 speed now. Some are over 130.
2. (LOL AAA) but my CB had 25 tackling last season and had 53 tackles and 9 missed
3. With 4 pieces of AEQ, higher ALGs, and multi-train, you can easily go 81,77,73,68 (speed, agility, vision, jumping) and still have good secondary attributes and SAs.
4. we will see
5. http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1177969&mode=pbp http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1178032&mode=pbp http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1194553&mode=pbp http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1197260&mode=pbp http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1198273&mode=pbp - actually he raped CBs in the 3rd quarter