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Capaneus
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Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
That's a bit of an over-generalization no?
"loldots", to me, is the idea that the game isn't a workable and testable model of American Football.
I'm not going to rant against the game. I have confidence in the direction and vision Bort has for it, but at the same time, acting like these games are a test of much more then "Who found the latest exploit", "Who's FS took the least retarded path to the ball", or "Which team's DE ran around the OT more times" is a little silly.
The game would be much better if people took a deep breath occasionally.
As a MMORPG, GLB is all about competition between teams and players. There are imperfections in the sim, and if it won't be anything but "loldots" until it is a "workable and testable model of American Football", well, it's going to be loldots for a very long time.
As it stands now, the flaws in the sim aren't enough to rob me of my enjoyment of the game. In my eyes, winning doesn't simply consist of exploiting flaws and cheesing your way to victory. There are strategy, tactics and planning involved in winning.
The way you're describing loldots is the antidote to people who take the game too seriously and believe that winning makes them some kind of genius. Fine, I can see where that's annoying. But that's not my particular problem. I know it's a game, and I know that winning involves a lot of luck. But for me, the game becomes less fun if people don't take it somewhere seriously. There's a middle ground between loldots and taking it too seriously, and I'd like to stay there. Which is why I'd prefer that this meme not take over the whole game. If people want to approach the game that way, great, more power to 'em. I'm happy as long as I don't have to be over-exposed to it.
That's a bit of an over-generalization no?
"loldots", to me, is the idea that the game isn't a workable and testable model of American Football.
I'm not going to rant against the game. I have confidence in the direction and vision Bort has for it, but at the same time, acting like these games are a test of much more then "Who found the latest exploit", "Who's FS took the least retarded path to the ball", or "Which team's DE ran around the OT more times" is a little silly.
The game would be much better if people took a deep breath occasionally.
As a MMORPG, GLB is all about competition between teams and players. There are imperfections in the sim, and if it won't be anything but "loldots" until it is a "workable and testable model of American Football", well, it's going to be loldots for a very long time.
As it stands now, the flaws in the sim aren't enough to rob me of my enjoyment of the game. In my eyes, winning doesn't simply consist of exploiting flaws and cheesing your way to victory. There are strategy, tactics and planning involved in winning.
The way you're describing loldots is the antidote to people who take the game too seriously and believe that winning makes them some kind of genius. Fine, I can see where that's annoying. But that's not my particular problem. I know it's a game, and I know that winning involves a lot of luck. But for me, the game becomes less fun if people don't take it somewhere seriously. There's a middle ground between loldots and taking it too seriously, and I'd like to stay there. Which is why I'd prefer that this meme not take over the whole game. If people want to approach the game that way, great, more power to 'em. I'm happy as long as I don't have to be over-exposed to it.
Last edited Oct 25, 2008 16:14:41
23yrwej
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Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
Originally posted by jrry32
Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
Originally posted by SteelersInsider
I find it hilarious that people feel too much pride to use the defensive "exploit" to counter the offensive "exploit" and would rather take the loss.
I know right. Like I went over to my buddy's house to play Madden and he kept running the same unstoppable play over and over. I was all like "Why not pick a new play and lets have some fun" but then he was all "Why don't you just call this play". So I did, and the game ended in a 70-70 tie. It sucked not having a challenge, but hey, at least neither of us has any pride left to get in the way of all our shame.
Also, fer serial, if you think Off-tackle running is an offensive exploit, you need to look up exploit because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
You really are missing the point. Even if you counter it the game has basically lost its fun and the challenge because then who cares about gameplanning or even trying other plays...you basically go with that 1 play against the defenses 1 play and whoever wins...really how is that fun? And if you want to get technical, we are using it in the since of exploitation.
No I'm not really missing the point, as that's what we've been saying for a full season now.
That's the issue, why bother when you have to use exploits to win.
I know that football is full of old cliches, so people will always come up with "Do whatever it takes to win" and other tired nonsense, but in the end, we're playing a game why not try to make it fun.
In our league, my team played another team (Dryden) that was probably close to our talent level, but likely didn't have much of a shot without using the goalline exploit. Their DC decided before the game he wouldn't use it and followed through. I know we're all internet tough guys with huge epeens, but that was about as class a move as you'll find in MMOs.
Dryden is a great team and a class act then we seem to be in agreement...it just isn't worth it to win if you have to use exploits imo...using the same EXPLOITATION(for you) just ruins the fun.
Originally posted by jrry32
Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
Originally posted by SteelersInsider
I find it hilarious that people feel too much pride to use the defensive "exploit" to counter the offensive "exploit" and would rather take the loss.
I know right. Like I went over to my buddy's house to play Madden and he kept running the same unstoppable play over and over. I was all like "Why not pick a new play and lets have some fun" but then he was all "Why don't you just call this play". So I did, and the game ended in a 70-70 tie. It sucked not having a challenge, but hey, at least neither of us has any pride left to get in the way of all our shame.
Also, fer serial, if you think Off-tackle running is an offensive exploit, you need to look up exploit because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
You really are missing the point. Even if you counter it the game has basically lost its fun and the challenge because then who cares about gameplanning or even trying other plays...you basically go with that 1 play against the defenses 1 play and whoever wins...really how is that fun? And if you want to get technical, we are using it in the since of exploitation.
No I'm not really missing the point, as that's what we've been saying for a full season now.
That's the issue, why bother when you have to use exploits to win.
I know that football is full of old cliches, so people will always come up with "Do whatever it takes to win" and other tired nonsense, but in the end, we're playing a game why not try to make it fun.
In our league, my team played another team (Dryden) that was probably close to our talent level, but likely didn't have much of a shot without using the goalline exploit. Their DC decided before the game he wouldn't use it and followed through. I know we're all internet tough guys with huge epeens, but that was about as class a move as you'll find in MMOs.
Dryden is a great team and a class act then we seem to be in agreement...it just isn't worth it to win if you have to use exploits imo...using the same EXPLOITATION(for you) just ruins the fun.
Vanilla Thunder
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Originally posted by Capaneus
Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
That's a bit of an over-generalization no?
"loldots", to me, is the idea that the game isn't a workable and testable model of American Football.
I'm not going to rant against the game. I have confidence in the direction and vision Bort has for it, but at the same time, acting like these games are a test of much more then "Who found the latest exploit", "Who's FS took the least retarded path to the ball", or "Which team's DE ran around the OT more times" is a little silly.
The game would be much better if people took a deep breath occasionally.
As a MMORPG, GLB is all about competition between teams and players. There are imperfections in the sim, and if it won't be anything but "loldots" until it is a "workable and testable model of American Football", well, it's going to be loldots for a very long time.
As it stands now, the flaws in the sim aren't enough to rob me of my enjoyment of the game. In my eyes, winning doesn't simply consist of exploiting flaws and cheesing your way to victory. There are strategy, tactics and planning involved in winning.
The way you're describing loldots is the antidote to people who take the game too seriously and believe that winning makes them some kind of genius. Fine, I can see where that's annoying. But that's not my particular problem. I know it's a game, and I know that winning involves a lot of luck. But for me, the game becomes less fun if people don't take it somewhere seriously. There's a middle ground between loldots and taking it too seriously, and I'd like to stay there. Which is why I'd prefer that this meme not take over the whole game. If people want to approach the game that way, great, more power to 'em. I'm happy as long as I don't have to be over-exposed to it.
1) The game is going to be loldots for a while. That's part of the work in progress tag. Doesn't mean it's not a fun game, but inputs hardly equal outputs right now
2) If only you were in the majority, but you aren't. Having to listen to people prattle on and on about how great their gameplanning was/is gets old (someone even mentioned examples involving the goalline thing earlier). I think that's where the "loldots" meme actually sprung from, the backlash from one too many "my team is better than your team" threads. Because that's such a useless debate with things borked as badly as they are, I think people just got tired.
Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
That's a bit of an over-generalization no?
"loldots", to me, is the idea that the game isn't a workable and testable model of American Football.
I'm not going to rant against the game. I have confidence in the direction and vision Bort has for it, but at the same time, acting like these games are a test of much more then "Who found the latest exploit", "Who's FS took the least retarded path to the ball", or "Which team's DE ran around the OT more times" is a little silly.
The game would be much better if people took a deep breath occasionally.
As a MMORPG, GLB is all about competition between teams and players. There are imperfections in the sim, and if it won't be anything but "loldots" until it is a "workable and testable model of American Football", well, it's going to be loldots for a very long time.
As it stands now, the flaws in the sim aren't enough to rob me of my enjoyment of the game. In my eyes, winning doesn't simply consist of exploiting flaws and cheesing your way to victory. There are strategy, tactics and planning involved in winning.
The way you're describing loldots is the antidote to people who take the game too seriously and believe that winning makes them some kind of genius. Fine, I can see where that's annoying. But that's not my particular problem. I know it's a game, and I know that winning involves a lot of luck. But for me, the game becomes less fun if people don't take it somewhere seriously. There's a middle ground between loldots and taking it too seriously, and I'd like to stay there. Which is why I'd prefer that this meme not take over the whole game. If people want to approach the game that way, great, more power to 'em. I'm happy as long as I don't have to be over-exposed to it.
1) The game is going to be loldots for a while. That's part of the work in progress tag. Doesn't mean it's not a fun game, but inputs hardly equal outputs right now
2) If only you were in the majority, but you aren't. Having to listen to people prattle on and on about how great their gameplanning was/is gets old (someone even mentioned examples involving the goalline thing earlier). I think that's where the "loldots" meme actually sprung from, the backlash from one too many "my team is better than your team" threads. Because that's such a useless debate with things borked as badly as they are, I think people just got tired.
Capaneus
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Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
1) The game is going to be loldots for a while. That's part of the work in progress tag. Doesn't mean it's not a fun game, but inputs hardly equal outputs right now
2) If only you were in the majority, but you aren't. Having to listen to people prattle on and on about how great their gameplanning was/is gets old (someone even mentioned examples involving the goalline thing earlier). I think that's where the "loldots" meme actually sprung from, the backlash from one too many "my team is better than your team" threads. Because that's such a useless debate with things borked as badly as they are, I think people just got tired.
1. Okay, since we both agree that the game is fun, I guess we disagree about what constitutes lol. For me, the game doesn't have to be a 100% perfect simulation of football (which would be impossible anyway) in order to be non-lol. If QBs could throw hundred yard passes and HBs could run 50 yds in .5 seconds, it would be lol. I know the sim is flawed, but the current flaws aren't enough to make me lol. I understand why they frustrate you (and they frustrate me too!) but the game, to me, represents a reasonable approximation of football. Short of actually playing the game IRL, there are going to points where things don't match up. The question shouldn't be "is this an exact simulation" but instead "is this fun to play". We both agree that it is. However,
2. is where I think we really clash. You feel that given the current state of the game "my team is better than your team" is a pointless debate. Fine, that's your opinion. I disagree, and that's my opinion. A competitive game like this depends on people wanting to prove "my team is better than your team" on the field. If your opponent doesn't feel that way, the game is no fun. Both teams have to be trying to win, otherwise what's the point of playing in the first place? If you put time and effort in to winning, your opponent replying with "loldots" kinda takes the fun out of it. Basically, we disagree on whether the game is anything other than RNG. I feel there is enough of a correlation between recruiting well, building players well, gameplanning well and winning games. You don't. Fine. I may be deluded, but I'm having fun. You insisting that what I'm doing is "loldots" a) decreases my enjoyment of the game and b) is simply a matter of opinion. So unless you have some reason for wanting everyone to believe that GLB is loldots, I'd prefer if loldots was confined to Canada Pro.
1) The game is going to be loldots for a while. That's part of the work in progress tag. Doesn't mean it's not a fun game, but inputs hardly equal outputs right now
2) If only you were in the majority, but you aren't. Having to listen to people prattle on and on about how great their gameplanning was/is gets old (someone even mentioned examples involving the goalline thing earlier). I think that's where the "loldots" meme actually sprung from, the backlash from one too many "my team is better than your team" threads. Because that's such a useless debate with things borked as badly as they are, I think people just got tired.
1. Okay, since we both agree that the game is fun, I guess we disagree about what constitutes lol. For me, the game doesn't have to be a 100% perfect simulation of football (which would be impossible anyway) in order to be non-lol. If QBs could throw hundred yard passes and HBs could run 50 yds in .5 seconds, it would be lol. I know the sim is flawed, but the current flaws aren't enough to make me lol. I understand why they frustrate you (and they frustrate me too!) but the game, to me, represents a reasonable approximation of football. Short of actually playing the game IRL, there are going to points where things don't match up. The question shouldn't be "is this an exact simulation" but instead "is this fun to play". We both agree that it is. However,
2. is where I think we really clash. You feel that given the current state of the game "my team is better than your team" is a pointless debate. Fine, that's your opinion. I disagree, and that's my opinion. A competitive game like this depends on people wanting to prove "my team is better than your team" on the field. If your opponent doesn't feel that way, the game is no fun. Both teams have to be trying to win, otherwise what's the point of playing in the first place? If you put time and effort in to winning, your opponent replying with "loldots" kinda takes the fun out of it. Basically, we disagree on whether the game is anything other than RNG. I feel there is enough of a correlation between recruiting well, building players well, gameplanning well and winning games. You don't. Fine. I may be deluded, but I'm having fun. You insisting that what I'm doing is "loldots" a) decreases my enjoyment of the game and b) is simply a matter of opinion. So unless you have some reason for wanting everyone to believe that GLB is loldots, I'd prefer if loldots was confined to Canada Pro.
Last edited Oct 25, 2008 18:58:44
Vanilla Thunder
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I gave this example in another post, but it works:
Real life:
Offense calls an off-tackle run
Defense adjusts and calls goalline
Offense adjusts to pass over the top, defense gets beat
GLB:
Offense calls an off-tackle run
Defense adjusts and calls goalline
Offense would love to adjust and pass, but even if they try, it'll only work 25% of the time. Even then, because of pathing issues, there's a shot we'll see a sack before the QB "decides" to throw due to pressue.
There's a long list of other issues that pop up along these lines. There are fixes to take care of these issues, and Borts putting them in (Expanding the playbook is for sure, changing offensive playcalling is likely).
I'm not trying to "harsh anyones buzz" so to speak, but that's a two way street. Watching my 5 CBs fail to cover 2 WRs (extreme example, but apt) because they, for whatever reason, decided to double cover the TE and HB, isn't a good time. I'd fix it, but there are no "double cover" options. The lack of defintion, coupled with basic sim issues, causes much of the lol sentiment. You're welcome to feel as happy as you like with the accomplishments of your dots, but it's really, really tough to line up many of the plays in your average game and say "yeah, that's about how that would run in real life". I understand we'll never get 100% RL football, but getting closer then we are now would help greatly.
Real life:
Offense calls an off-tackle run
Defense adjusts and calls goalline
Offense adjusts to pass over the top, defense gets beat
GLB:
Offense calls an off-tackle run
Defense adjusts and calls goalline
Offense would love to adjust and pass, but even if they try, it'll only work 25% of the time. Even then, because of pathing issues, there's a shot we'll see a sack before the QB "decides" to throw due to pressue.
There's a long list of other issues that pop up along these lines. There are fixes to take care of these issues, and Borts putting them in (Expanding the playbook is for sure, changing offensive playcalling is likely).
I'm not trying to "harsh anyones buzz" so to speak, but that's a two way street. Watching my 5 CBs fail to cover 2 WRs (extreme example, but apt) because they, for whatever reason, decided to double cover the TE and HB, isn't a good time. I'd fix it, but there are no "double cover" options. The lack of defintion, coupled with basic sim issues, causes much of the lol sentiment. You're welcome to feel as happy as you like with the accomplishments of your dots, but it's really, really tough to line up many of the plays in your average game and say "yeah, that's about how that would run in real life". I understand we'll never get 100% RL football, but getting closer then we are now would help greatly.
Capaneus
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Originally posted by Vanilla Thunder
The lack of defintion, coupled with basic sim issues, causes much of the lol sentiment. You're welcome to feel as happy as you like with the accomplishments of your dots, but it's really, really tough to line up many of the plays in your average game and say "yeah, that's about how that would run in real life". I understand we'll never get 100% RL football, but getting closer then we are now would help greatly.
I know it departs significantly from RL football. I'm not claiming that isn't the case. As I said earlier, the question isn't "is it accurate?" but "is it fun?"
We seem to be smooshing several concepts together, so let's tease them out:
1. I'm not trying to convince you that my dots are awesome. When you say "you're welcome to feel as happy as you like with the accomplishments of your dots," you seem to be arguing against a claim I'm not making. I'm not trying to get anyone to proclaim me all-knowing king of GLB. I'm not trying to claim that all of my success in GLB is the result of my superior all around awesomeness. It's not. Much of it is luck. But, then again, so is much of real life football. This isn't some struggle to inflate my ego either. I simply want to be able to enjoy the game. In order for pretty much any game to be fun to play, you opponent has to be trying to win, and loldots seems to claim that trying to win is passe. Also, if you win and your opponent immediately proclaims "This game is stupid, you only won because the game is flawed, and I wasn't even trying anyway", that sucks the fun out it, and it's bad sportsmanship to boot.
2. You also seem to be conflating "GLB is a mostly accurate simulation of football" with "GLB is fun to play". When you say, "it's really, really tough to line up many of the plays in your average game and say yeah, that's about how that would run in real life" you're right. But I don't necessarily think that means the game isn't fun. I also don't think that automatically means that there isn't a satisfactory correlation between GLB skill and winning games. So, I think what we should really be arguing about is to what degree better teams, players and gameplanners win games rather than arguing about whether it accurately reflects RL football.
The lack of defintion, coupled with basic sim issues, causes much of the lol sentiment. You're welcome to feel as happy as you like with the accomplishments of your dots, but it's really, really tough to line up many of the plays in your average game and say "yeah, that's about how that would run in real life". I understand we'll never get 100% RL football, but getting closer then we are now would help greatly.
I know it departs significantly from RL football. I'm not claiming that isn't the case. As I said earlier, the question isn't "is it accurate?" but "is it fun?"
We seem to be smooshing several concepts together, so let's tease them out:
1. I'm not trying to convince you that my dots are awesome. When you say "you're welcome to feel as happy as you like with the accomplishments of your dots," you seem to be arguing against a claim I'm not making. I'm not trying to get anyone to proclaim me all-knowing king of GLB. I'm not trying to claim that all of my success in GLB is the result of my superior all around awesomeness. It's not. Much of it is luck. But, then again, so is much of real life football. This isn't some struggle to inflate my ego either. I simply want to be able to enjoy the game. In order for pretty much any game to be fun to play, you opponent has to be trying to win, and loldots seems to claim that trying to win is passe. Also, if you win and your opponent immediately proclaims "This game is stupid, you only won because the game is flawed, and I wasn't even trying anyway", that sucks the fun out it, and it's bad sportsmanship to boot.
2. You also seem to be conflating "GLB is a mostly accurate simulation of football" with "GLB is fun to play". When you say, "it's really, really tough to line up many of the plays in your average game and say yeah, that's about how that would run in real life" you're right. But I don't necessarily think that means the game isn't fun. I also don't think that automatically means that there isn't a satisfactory correlation between GLB skill and winning games. So, I think what we should really be arguing about is to what degree better teams, players and gameplanners win games rather than arguing about whether it accurately reflects RL football.
Last edited Oct 25, 2008 19:52:51
HootyHoo
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His funny is a more accurate funny imo
[x] Vanilla Thunder
[ ] Capaneus
[x] Vanilla Thunder
[ ] Capaneus
Last edited Oct 25, 2008 19:56:52
Mornacale
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Vanilla Thunder, you suck. Go back to your shitty league and take your memes with you. Stop shitting up our awesome forums. We have enough people in this league who do that already.
Originally posted by PP
Look, I'm not going to lay out the instructions on how to beat GL D, but I suspect most know.
Yes. Pass. To which teams respond, but I want to run the ball. Well just like in real life good defensive coordinators force teams out of the offense they want to run. They force them to pass when they want to run, run when they want to pass, throw to someone other than their top WR, and so on.
On the game in general, it is just a game, and everyone plays on the same terms and within the same constraints. If I can beat you then I am better at playing the game than you. That is why we play in the first place. Why play WoW? It's not true to life. You play because it's fun to try to play the game better than your opponent, and it works the same way here. Whatever import each person thinks being good at this game has on their real life "awesomeness" is another issue and a matter of personal choice, but again, why even play the game if you don't care about winning and try to do it as intensely as you can?
Look, I'm not going to lay out the instructions on how to beat GL D, but I suspect most know.
Yes. Pass. To which teams respond, but I want to run the ball. Well just like in real life good defensive coordinators force teams out of the offense they want to run. They force them to pass when they want to run, run when they want to pass, throw to someone other than their top WR, and so on.
On the game in general, it is just a game, and everyone plays on the same terms and within the same constraints. If I can beat you then I am better at playing the game than you. That is why we play in the first place. Why play WoW? It's not true to life. You play because it's fun to try to play the game better than your opponent, and it works the same way here. Whatever import each person thinks being good at this game has on their real life "awesomeness" is another issue and a matter of personal choice, but again, why even play the game if you don't care about winning and try to do it as intensely as you can?
Last edited Oct 26, 2008 12:53:48
Also if you think gameplanning has very little effect on winning and that it is all just finding exploits then you are just wrong. Gameplannning does have a big impact on games and the people who think it doesn't are usually th ones who are bad at it. Also a lot of supposed build exploits are more an issue of stupid builds than true exploits. Most notable is the "fast DE imbalance". I sound like a broken record on this, but if you put a CB with Speed 30, Agility 40 against a WR with Speed 85, Agility 75 you would not wonder why he kept getting beat, yet people put OTs with Speed 30, Agility 40 against DEs with Speed 85, Agility 75 all the time and somehow the fact that they get beat again and again is a build exploit or imbalance.
Originally posted by Mornacale
Damn, Rebel Yell upset today. It really is upset city in USA Pro this league.
Who else got upset?
Damn, Rebel Yell upset today. It really is upset city in USA Pro this league.
Who else got upset?
23yrwej
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Originally posted by Mornacale
Damn, Rebel Yell upset today. It really is upset city in USA Pro this league.
Upset...you must be joking. BSB is the best team in the West imo.
Damn, Rebel Yell upset today. It really is upset city in USA Pro this league.
Upset...you must be joking. BSB is the best team in the West imo.
phthalatemagic
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Originally posted by tpaterniti
Originally posted by Mornacale
Damn, Rebel Yell upset today. It really is upset city in USA Pro this league.
Who else got upset?
I'm upset. I have cable and am stuck watching the Arizona Cardinals
Originally posted by Mornacale
Damn, Rebel Yell upset today. It really is upset city in USA Pro this league.
Who else got upset?
I'm upset. I have cable and am stuck watching the Arizona Cardinals
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