Warrior General Games

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Imho jumping being disregarded concerns me more then vision on WRs, but not saying my view is necessarily correct.

On defense, jumping and vision are both the biggest parts of the PD roll. Vision also lets them react to everything (WR doesn't have to react to the CB, doesn't have to react to any properly thrown ball, etc). Vision does a lot more for defenders since they don't know the routes, don't know the play.

Interesting and tbh part of the learning curve in the VIS Vs AGL debate...I used to think of AGL as the att that kept the cb close enough to the Rec for VIS to have a meaningful impact and disrupt the play but increased VIS imo seems the way to go. Is it the VIS on a "slow" cb that keeps him close enough to engage the rec and win the roll (usually with JMP) ??

A lot about a lot but I can only tell you what I know. The more defenders around a receiver, the lower the % chance for a catch. Jumping, agility, speed, vision, strength, height, weight, the size of the dot's balls... all goes by the wayside if this isn't addressed. A HUGE chunk of INT's and INC's come from passes thrown to receivers that have more than one defender around it when the pass (finally) arrives. I tried using 100+ strength QB's set for max bullet... and the ball STILL does not beat the defenders to the receiver.
My take? Bort's passes simply do not move fast enough no matter what you do. This fact, fairly known even if not known by most OC's, causes them (OC's) to go for shorter throws (along with the fact QB's have a very short time in the pocket to make a [quality] decision)... which, in turn, causes DC's to blanket the short lanes and (mostly) ignore any route that takes more than 2 or 3 tics to be targeted... such as deep bombs. Set one quality defender on those receivers and take your chances. Int, Inc, or 1 catch out of every 10 or so attempts. Not good odds.
While I don't have figures in front of me I would not be the least bit surprised if RTE's and Scatbacks have a FAR higher completion % than WR's do... simply because of the routes I see in all the available plays. Far too many WR routes either stay close together... or plow into each other, sometimes multiple times per play! When that happens you are inviting DB's to come to the INT party every time you throw to those types of routes. There are some plays where having 3 or even 4 receivers all bunched together happens far too often. Go ahead... throw that pass into that hornet's nest and see if you don't get stung.
In the end, how you build a QB... and how you build a receiver (WR in the case of the OP's point) does matter. But not NEARLY as much as what routes you choose to throw to and when. If you get lucky and nobody covered the receiver (DC's do mess up sometimes) then you got an easy completion. If you get lucky and can throw to a 1-on-1 situation with NO other defenders effecting the outcome, then you at least got a shot at a completion. Anything else and it's likely FUBAR. And no build can overcome that.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Creative route running is a joke even if you build to use it. I've watched enough replays to have them burned into my brainstem and I've never seen a receiver, set on CRR, head for the big open spot on the field... or any QB that can see that happening and make the throw.

:

Wrong
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3097903&pbp_id=990507

I don't know how to say this without sounding rude, The problem is your builds and the way you set up you defense. I have literally thousands of plays like this in NAPL where our 'run first' QB led the League in passing yards and TDs every single season making throws to creative route running WRs exactly like this. Meanwhile our CBs rarely got beaten and we gave up about 150 yards total offense a game... at the most. Again, every season- every one, except when we made it to World League.

You know what happened then? We got whooped, not because we didn't stop the 'invincible GLB running game' but because our defense being so built towards stopping that run game (against pretty much the most predictable offenses ever) got torn up every time they'd line up a bTE and pHB and throw it deep against cover one... our CBs who had rarely ever gotten beaten while we went 15-1 every season in NAPL got beat like a drum by creative route running WRS against 1 on 1 coverage with no help over the top- and by the time wee we realized cover 1 and cover 0 gets you killed against the best WRs, it was too late, and now we gotta work our way all the way back up for two years to try our new defensive ideas against WRs and OCs of that top quality and see if it works. .

It seems instead of complaining that WRs are never good and that creative route running never works, some agents spent their time trying and doing. I don't know what else to say...

93 seasons and he can't find one broad WR to fit the bill? C'mon dave, you must be doing something seriously wrong...

I'm kidding but really not. Consider what I say or don't; honestly its easier for me if you don't. I just can't stand by while you say something in error and not try at least one time to correct that inaccuracy. You are incorrect because exactly what you said is impossible, it happens all the time if you know how. WRs adjust their routes to the open spot and the QB puts the ball there. That is like our entire passing offense. I'm not trying to be mean but that's just a fact.

Theo, do you feel that current meta WR's are the optimal WR builds in GLB?

If talking specifically from the perspective of WR's, there are many things outside of the receivers control, and only one thing within their control (the build).

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago

My take? Bort's passes simply do not move fast enough no matter what you do.

Even with QB throwing with 100 bullet I've seen defenders teleported to the receiver faster than the ball and that's insane and unreal.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Theo, do you feel that current meta WR's are the optimal WR builds in GLB?

If talking specifically from the perspective of WR's, there are many things outside of the receivers control, and only one thing within their control (the build).

we can fix/change the builds as you suggest. Do you think will solve the problem with pass game? Did you notice TD/INT ratio this season in WL? It's worse than any season so far!

Originally posted by Tomcic
I say balance it out a bit! If teams go with a high str,tckl FF% setup (like runDEs,runDTs,HHLBs), the bump up the fumbles! We experimented a lot with the power tackler VA, there is not much difference in FFs when you run on power tackling or balanced, which is quite a shame. We've run on power one season, and on balanced the season after that. I think only 2 FFs total were the difference.

When it comes to CBs my general thought is this: there are 3 types of CBs which are currently part of WL rosters:
intCBs: let them stay in their zone making picks, make them more vulnerable against rushing
deflectCBs: less picks, more balanced when it comes to defending the run and pass
comboCBs: more run stoppers, but vulnerable against the pass
blitzingCBs: specific dots, make them effective so the QB locks only on the first target on a blitz play. But if the QB has a 1-1 matchup on a blitz play, give him a higher chance of converting. If it’s a bad matchup with a FS/SS on top, make the O accordingly pay.


And regarding the O:
I always had problems with the emphasis of 1-1s. Which sort of WR does make an intCB pay?
- Is it a fast juke WR, which outfakes the intCB?
- Is it the possWR which has more height, jumping and catching on a 1-1?
- Or a powerWR, with str,break tackle ability on short routes combined with YAC which forces a broken tackle for a potential 10-15yard gain.

The answer: none of them. IntCBs are not only able to force turnovers, but they are tackling machines without any problems.

That’s why you have teams using 3-2-6 or Quarter coverage when you are facing SBBig pHB+rTEs because they know, the intCBs will make the sure tackles outside in case the powerHB rushes outside. Hell, that’s why teams are rolling with 2 coverLBs only nowadays because they know they can let their CBs handle the business on those TE heavy formations.

Make the passing game more effective then and make good coverLB play count again. CBs vs WRs, and FS/SS/LBs vs TEs/HBs/FBs. If you use coverLBs on WRs, you shall get a “little” coverage penalty, and same goes for CBs on TEs/HBs/FBs. Makes formations such as 3-3-5, 3-4 relevant again when going up against 2TEs, BigI, I-Any



This post from the private forum on this topic hits the nail on the head - especially the bolded part

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Theo, do you feel that current meta WR's are the optimal WR builds in GLB?

If talking specifically from the perspective of WR's, there are many things outside of the receivers control, and only one thing within their control (the build).

Optimal? No. Quality? Yes. When I say there's nothing wrong with the current meta WR builds I mean it from the perspective of the overall game performance and not that one build is better/worse than another.

The question becomes then; If I could grant you magic power to create the optimal WR builds, given no changes to the current sim, just how much better do you think your game stats would be? Would your QB suddenly improve his completion % by 20%? 15%? 10%? 5? As OC's most of us have likely tried a plethora of various plays, tactics, builds, player settings... everything. And, yes, even trying radical changes to receiver builds to try and find something... anything that greatly improves reducing INT's and INC's and the overall quality of our offenses. Again... I not not saying you're wrong and actually think much the same as you... that at least trying something is better than trying nothing.

I think you can build WR's that are better, in 1-on-1 coverage, at limiting INT's and INC's and I think some of what you say is spot on for that. But if you're getting a LOT of 1-on-1 coverage then, at the risk of being offensive to someone out there, I would say you're facing a DC that's not among the best. When you watch those defenses, that lead the league in QB kills, you'll see what I'm saying. Watch the replays and you'll see very few 1-on-1 outcomes. There might be one defender assigned to cover one receiver but, by the time the pass arrives at it's destination, there's always 2, 3, 4, or more defenders. And I absolutely know that the more defenders involved in the play's outcome, the bigger and bigger that penalty to offensive success there is. And, what's worse, it doesn't swing both ways. Put 3 receivers in an area together and 3 defenders in the same area, the extra receivers do not add to the quality of the play. But the 3 defenders sure do combine to increase the damage %'s.

Things I think Bort didn't get quite right.
#1.) Speed of throws. Watch enough NFL and you can see QB's zipping medium and short passes in so that other defenders cannot close down and interfere with the outcome. It's why quick slants are hell to cover. In GLB quick slants easily involve the man covering the receiver plus the LB's, D-linemen, safeties, and any defensive dot within 5 yards of the catch target. All of them negatively effecting the outcome. A faster speed of throw would/should take some of that ability to close down out and make those kinds of throws more true to 1-on-1 coverage. And I'll take my chances with good builds anytime with 1-on-1 situations.

#2.) Radius of defender effect. The radius of the defenders' effect on a receiver's ability to make a catch is simply way too big. Just because a defender is 5 yards away doesn't mean he has anything (or much of anything) to do with the catch outcome. His damn arms aren't 5 yards long! Defenders between QB and receiver can jump and effect the throw... but a defender sitting 5 yards off to the left or right or behind should not have any (or much of) an effect.

#3.)QB vision. I know what it is supposed to effect and, for the most part, it does that pretty good. However, whatever timing Bort instilled between receiver, QB, and defenders does not work well. I see all the time receivers with the "I'm open!" symbol and while it's not a 100% thing, most of the time they ARE open... only IF the QB sees him in time... only IF the throw gets there before the receiver runs back into coverage or defenders collapse down far too quickly. In truth, the QB should SEE the 'I'm open!' potential BEFORE the receiver says so. He should see the receiver heading for the open area and deliver the ball there BEFORE needing the receiver to tell him.

There's something in the whole damn setup of how passes are done and outcomes resolved that doesn't work in the way it really should. So, in the end, you could build receivers that might help, in certain limited situations, tilt the scales in their favor... or, at least, make INT's less likely to happen... but I just don't see the game mechanics working to make those 'better receivers' change things from what they are. IMHO.

@ Bash E. Bull. My friend, you assume too much and I say that not as a crass criticism but just an honest take on your reply.
My post about creative route running had very little to do with my own builds but had everything to do with decades of being a scout for various teams, many seasons ago. While I did try it myself, on several builds I did expressly designed for that purpose, the bulk of what I know comes from that mountain of replays watched and questions asked over the years. My own builds were done in a full out attempt to prove creative route running DOES work... but the results were the same as any other QB/receiver situation.
For every link you post showing it actually working I can (well, could have... been retired from scouting for quite a while now) likely show 50 more where the receiver either broke off his route and caused the QB to throw to where he >thought< the receiver was going... only to get tagged with either a bad pass (at best) or an easy INT. Or, many times, the receiver ran himself out of his route and right into another receiver's route causing the pass to that receiver to end up in sh*t.
When I say creative route running doesn't work I mean it from the perspective of what it SHOULD do MOST, if not all, of the time... which it doesn't. Which means it doesn't help improve you overall game stats (completion % and catch %) which is why you would/should use it in the 1st place. Yes... you can always find a play where it did what it's supposed to do. There's always the odd result... but it's not the norm. Which is why most of the OC's I've worked for, under, with, and around really don't like it and many ask you to NOT use it because they've seen what I've seen plenty enough.

Caveat; I think it could have a much better effect for Scatbacks than TE's and WR's as they tend to be targeted late rather than early and generally have more 'open space' to work with.

Theo, I refuse to read your replies until you space out your paragraphs my friend. I had an eye exam today and they told me I have macular degeneration from your posting style.

Originally posted by reddogrw
This post from the private forum on this topic hits the nail on the head - especially the bolded part



How is he so comfortable with INT CB's tackling Powerbacks. This is my huge struggle right now.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Theo, I refuse to read your replies until you space out your paragraphs my friend. I had an eye exam today and they told me I have macular degeneration from your posting style.

Better, luv?

Originally posted by Pwned
How is he so comfortable with INT CB's tackling Powerbacks. This is my huge struggle right now.

any power backs out there running Slippery rather than Bruiser? just a thought... seems like it's a choice. also the veterans have constantly shunned Short Yardage Monster in the forums for as long as I can remember lol

Originally posted by Pwned
How is he so comfortable with INT CB's tackling Powerbacks. This is my huge struggle right now.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/full_player_stats.pl?player_id=4776226&playoffs=0

45 tackles, none missed


https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/full_player_stats.pl?player_id=4775295&playoffs=0

37/4


https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/full_player_stats.pl?player_id=4776264&playoffs=0

44/5


INT CB's can tackle

HOOD doesn't get the most INT's, but we lead in sacks and fewest missed tackles

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team_stats.pl?league_id=280&conference_id=0&stat=defense&sort=missed_tackles&playoffs=0

Originally posted by Bash E. Bull
Wrong
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3097903&pbp_id=990507

I don't know how to say this without sounding rude, The problem is your builds and the way you set up you defense. I have literally thousands of plays like this in NAPL where our 'run first' QB led the League in passing yards and TDs every single season making throws to creative route running WRs exactly like this. Meanwhile our CBs rarely got beaten and we gave up about 150 yards total offense a game... at the most. Again, every season- every one, except when we made it to World League.

You know what happened then? We got whooped, not because we didn't stop the 'invincible GLB running game' but because our defense being so built towards stopping that run game (against pretty much the most predictable offenses ever) got torn up every time they'd line up a bTE and pHB and throw it deep against cover one... our CBs who had rarely ever gotten beaten while we went 15-1 every season in NAPL got beat like a drum by creative route running WRS against 1 on 1 coverage with no help over the top- and by the time wee we realized cover 1 and cover 0 gets you killed against the best WRs, it was too late, and now we gotta work our way all the way back up for two years to try our new defensive ideas against WRs and OCs of that top quality and see if it works. .

It seems instead of complaining that WRs are never good and that creative route running never works, some agents spent their time trying and doing. I don't know what else to say...

93 seasons and he can't find one broad WR to fit the bill? C'mon dave, you must be doing something seriously wrong...

I'm kidding but really not. Consider what I say or don't; honestly its easier for me if you don't. I just can't stand by while you say something in error and not try at least one time to correct that inaccuracy. You are incorrect because exactly what you said is impossible, it happens all the time if you know how. WRs adjust their routes to the open spot and the QB puts the ball there. That is like our entire passing offense. I'm not trying to be mean but that's just a fact.


no offense, but it needs to be proven out in WL for it to be deemed successful - too many partial/CPU teams everywhere else - needs to be done against INT CB's with full AE in a good defensive scheme, not in a prep league