Warrior General Games

On the topic of SH for backs, here is some of my personal experience so far

I have 3 receiving backs I built in the same generation that are all on 100% pass teams, although 1 played RPE last season with the other two in casual pro. The RPE HB had a day 880 QB throwing to him a majority of the season. They have similar builds, but one of the Pro guys has 11 Sticky Hands from a piece in the store. Despite not playing any 3rd downs last season, he seemed to do the best out of the three. That may have actually worked to his advantage though, by being free to use another attribute VA instead of Mr. R, and perhaps matched against worse defenders at times.

Anyways I opened these builds:

Starter on Boss [Pro] (no SH) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4620500 - 117 targets, 69.2% catch, 6.7 ypr
Backup on Boss [Pro] (has SH) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4620501 - 126 targets, 75.4% catch, 6.9 ypr
Starter on Pwny (RPE) (no SH) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4620499 - 107 targets, 65.4% catch, 8.7 ypr

This was their first season in plateau. I'm going to swap their starting roles on Boss for S56, so that will give me a better idea of how much it is affected by depth chart positioning.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
On the topic of SH for backs, here is some of my personal experience so far

I have 3 receiving backs I built in the same generation that are all on 100% pass teams, although 1 played RPE last season with the other two in casual pro. The RPE HB had a day 880 QB throwing to him a majority of the season. They have similar builds, but one of the Pro guys has 11 Sticky Hands from a piece in the store. Despite not playing any 3rd downs last season, he seemed to do the best out of the three. That may have actually worked to his advantage though, by being free to use another attribute VA instead of Mr. R, and perhaps matched against worse defenders at times.

Anyways I opened these builds:

Starter on Boss [Pro] (no SH) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4620500 - 117 targets, 69.2% catch, 6.7 ypr
Backup on Boss [Pro] (has SH) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4620501 - 126 targets, 75.4% catch, 6.9 ypr
Starter on Pwny (RPE) (no SH) http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4620499 - 107 targets, 65.4% catch, 8.7 ypr

This was their first season in plateau. I'm going to swap their starting roles on Boss for S56, so that will give me a better idea of how much it is affected by depth chart positioning.

It does look like that rTE combo where having Juke/CF/FS/SH/RR/QC is a good combo of SA's. Maybe it's something like that with sHB: SH/RR/QC/J/CF. It would be similar BT investment with an extra couple of SA's and stopping multi earlier than you usually would.
It's hard to read the builds as well as how much confidence played a part with the Boss v's Pwny being the only other noticible difference as well (apart from league level). The SH bit does look like it affected something.

Originally posted by Sonic
It does look like that rTE combo where having Juke/CF/FS/SH/RR/QC is a good combo of SA's. Maybe it's something like that with sHB: SH/RR/QC/J/CF. It would be similar BT investment with an extra couple of SA's and stopping multi earlier than you usually would.
It's hard to read the builds as well as how much confidence played a part with the Boss v's Pwny being the only other noticible difference as well (apart from league level). The SH bit does look like it affected something.

Yes, confidence is the largest build difference next to Sticky Hands. Although I will say neither team was behind for more than a few quarters throughout the season so there wasn't any morale draining going on. Pwny was only behind for about 3 minutes.

I would rather have HF than CF for a HB both because of how they fire and the fact that HF is already included in the tree. CF would be a third additional SA after RR and SH and costly in terms of either BTs or EQ.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
Possession Receiver only works for WR/TE, if we are still talking about HBs. Always surprised each offseason to find a bunch of backs with it.

I think I've blurred the lines of the discussion by asking some generic "catching" questions in this topic. Good point about Possession Receiver not working for HBs.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
I think I've blurred the lines of the discussion by asking some generic "catching" questions in this topic. Good point about Possession Receiver not working for HBs.

I don't know. This type of difference about building for screens/run deeper routes to catching is relevant. I'm not sure if it is just SA's or actual skill set. Or both.

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
If you want to build a dot that only catches screens... If your dot will run deeper routes...

Originally posted by Sonic
Or more strength?

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
Strength definately helps. I consider the VAs "Mr Reliable" and "Possession Receiver" to be standard equipment for any volume-receiver.

While more strength will help ( as a secondary skill to Carrying when considering KL rolls), it is Carrying that Borty said was the big/main thing in avoiding KL's. So if you have a dot with 80 Carrying but only 20 strength, vs a dot with 70 carrying and 50 strength, I'd take the second one over the first. But 80 strength and 20 carrying? No.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
While more strength will help ( as a secondary skill to Carrying when considering KL rolls), it is Carrying that Borty said was the big/main thing in avoiding KL's. So if you have a dot with 80 Carrying but only 20 strength, vs a dot with 70 carrying and 50 strength, I'd take the second one over the first. But 80 strength and 20 carrying? No.

80 strength and 80 carrying?

Originally posted by Sonic
80 strength and 80 carrying?

Sure. But the issue always becomes at what expense do you sacrifice one skill to push another. When talking any kind of receiver you're always stuck on the following issues. Speed or no? If speed then how much needed to make the build idea work? Obviously you must have Catching but how much? Depends on dot's intended usage... a primarily screen/short route dot doesn't need as much as a medium Possession-type does. Agility yes or no? If so how much? Strength is tied to not only making and holding on to passes in heavy traffic but in blocking as well... if you're building a Receiver that can be useful in the running game as a blocker.

I could go on and on but, in the end I find it's so much easier to define WHAT you want the dot to do and then attribute what skills will be needed and how those skills will rank from most to least important. There are so many different ideas to work from... so there are just about as many build styles. To get your 80-80 ideal I know you'll have to sacrifice something important to get that. Speed? Agility? Catching? Vision? Stamina? Confidence? Blocking? There is simply no way to build a 'do-it-all' dot that will be competitive enough against the more specialized builds out there. The closest I've come is building a Power arch WR that is both a decent blocker and can contribute in the passing game. My WR will NEVER be HOF material... not even MVP material. But, to a good OC that can make proper use of him, he'll be a key cog in winning Championships. Not by being a Star but by being very useful.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Sure. But the issue always becomes at what expense do you sacrifice one skill to push another. When talking any kind of receiver you're always stuck on the following issues. Speed or no? If speed then how much needed to make the build idea work? Obviously you must have Catching but how much? Depends on dot's intended usage... a primarily screen/short route dot doesn't need as much as a medium Possession-type does. Agility yes or no? If so how much? Strength is tied to not only making and holding on to passes in heavy traffic but in blocking as well... if you're building a Receiver that can be useful in the running game as a blocker.

I could go on and on but, in the end I find it's so much easier to define WHAT you want the dot to do and then attribute what skills will be needed and how those skills will rank from most to least important. There are so many different ideas to work from... so there are just about as many build styles. To get your 80-80 ideal I know you'll have to sacrifice something important to get that. Speed? Agility? Catching? Vision? Stamina? Confidence? Blocking? There is simply no way to build a 'do-it-all' dot that will be competitive enough against the more specialized builds out there. The closest I've come is building a Power arch WR that is both a decent blocker and can contribute in the passing game. My WR will NEVER be HOF material... not even MVP material. But, to a good OC that can make proper use of him, he'll be a key cog in winning Championships. Not by being a Star but by being very useful.

Actually, its the SA's that I'm trying to get my head around. I can give the player 155 speed with 90 agility/catching, 60+ stamina and capped vision/confidence but I don't know which way to go with SA's. Juke/PT, or Juke/Scat Back or PT/Scat Back are what I've been considering. Then I wonder if having 15% BT and 12% FC would be enough or just have 21% BT (or Juke even). I already have 2 5% CB pieces.

I just don't know enough about use of a player. He's been a fun dot to watch at the moment!

Originally posted by Sonic
Actually, its the SA's that I'm trying to get my head around. I can give the player 155 speed with 90 agility/catching, 60+ stamina and capped vision/confidence but I don't know which way to go with SA's. Juke/PT, or Juke/Scat Back or PT/Scat Back are what I've been considering. Then I wonder if having 15% BT and 12% FC would be enough or just have 21% BT (or Juke even). I already have 2 5% CB pieces.

I just don't know enough about use of a player. He's been a fun dot to watch at the moment!

You threw out a bunch of break tackle stuff there for a player that will not be good at breaking tackles at end build. What are you planning to take strength and carrying to? If I were you I would go with Juke/Head Fake then Quick Cut, Run Route, Scat Back, Sticky Hands are all on the table. I put them in that order because it looks like your team will be running him a decent amount. If he stops rushing at some point then I would put RR before HF & QC

Originally posted by Bort January 22, 2012

Question~~ When catching the ball in traffic as an offensive receiver, how are these three attributes weighted in relation to each other? Strength, Agility, jumping
Answer~~ jumping > Agility > Strength


It's been forever since I played, so take this with more than a few grains of salt...

It seems to me that Bort is responding to a very specific circumstance: What attributes are important at the particular moment that a WR is attempting to catch a contested ball in traffic.

There no reason to doubt that Jumping might be the primary non-catching attribute in that specific case.

However, the broader question of "what is most important for a WR to be successful in his roll of getting lots of receptions" likely has a different answer.

The best way for a WR to catch a ball is to limit the "contestedness" of the reception in the first place. It certainly used to be the case that a WR with greater speed and agility, and likely vision, was broadly much more successful at getting receptions against quality opposition than a more jumping based WR (not to say jumping should be ignored, I used to have my best success with agility and catching both around 90, vision and jumping both low to mid 70s). For scat backs I usually went with more agility and less jumping as their routes were naturally better suited to a less contested catch, and the agility helped more in their break-tackle chances.

In other words, agility, faking skills, speed and vision will allow you the QB to "throw you open" a little more easily, and will possibly allow you attempt your catches in a less contested position.

Like I said though, I have no idea how the sim plays these days.

Yeah that summed up my thoughts very well.

Sim is about the same, though the meta has changed some. Power running is a lot of people's bread and butter and there is less passing at end build, due to the rise of the interception CB which I think was happening around when you quit.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
You threw out a bunch of break tackle stuff there for a player that will not be good at breaking tackles at end build. What are you planning to take strength and carrying to? If I were you I would go with Juke/Head Fake then Quick Cut, Run Route, Scat Back, Sticky Hands are all on the table. I put them in that order because it looks like your team will be running him a decent amount. If he stops rushing at some point then I would put RR before HF & QC

Originally posted by Sonic
80 strength and 80 carrying?

What do you mean threw out? I can still change the build and get agility to 97 and vision to second cap but would mean that the SA's are only on the top row and would be something like 7's and 9 for Juke (10 with a sacrifice of HF). Strength would then end up as in the 60's.

A Taut reply!

There's no skimping in the ology either.

Originally posted by Sonic
Originally posted by Donk3yMan

You threw out a bunch of break tackle stuff there for a player that will not be good at breaking tackles at end build. What are you planning to take strength and carrying to? If I were you I would go with Juke/Head Fake then Quick Cut, Run Route, Scat Back, Sticky Hands are all on the table. I put them in that order because it looks like your team will be running him a decent amount. If he stops rushing at some point then I would put RR before HF & QC

Originally posted by Sonic

80 strength and 80 carrying?

What do you mean threw out? I can still change the build and get agility to 97 and vision to second cap but would mean that the SA's are only on the top row and would be something like 7's and 9 for Juke (10 with a sacrifice of HF). Strength would then end up as in the 60's.

What he means is that you shouldn't go chasing broken tackles "half-assed". 80/80 STR/CAR isn't going to cut it, even with +21% BT gear. And you don't need that much STR/CAR to combat KL drops.

With your projected build, I'd go with Juke and fake% gear (double if possible). All the top tree SA are great for a scat back, (except Spin because you aren't going to break many tackles with or without it). IMO, Head Fake is also optional, definitely sacrifice that for more Juke.

You don't need any of the power back SA's (all though Cover up is nice, but it isn't a must have SA).