Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by merenoise


Instead of making up your own fallacious statistics,


You mean the ones I just linked to on the NFL site? Does the NFL make up its stats?

I'll show you the 10% of interceptions returned for TDs this season as soon as you show me the 16 WL teams that got over 7 yards per pass attempt in Season 24 or 25 (no, you can't add the two seasons together, although I doubt you'd get to 16 even if you did).




Dude, you've already proven that you are a liar that makes up stats with your 1% of all fumbles get returned for turnovers stat that you made up. Why would anyone believe any thing you say.

Originally posted by merenoise
Dude, you've already proven that you are a liar that makes up stats with your 1% of all fumbles get returned for turnovers stat that you made up. Why would anyone believe any thing you say.

(a) I never outright said that. I did imply it, but I never said it. I said "IF 10% of fumbles that are returned go for TD's." It shouldn't be seen as anything other than an estimate, as it was followed by "if 100% of all such fumble returns are on YouTube" which is probably right but obviously an estimate. It sure as all hell shouldn't stop anyone from believing me when I can link to proof, as I can with NFL stats, which you won't admit.

(b) I should back down a bit on whether there are 10% of picks being returned for TDs in WL. If it's happening in the NFL, it should happen in GLB, and the fact that you're completely and utterly wrong that the sim has been offensively biased doesn't change the fact that if much fewer than 10% of picks are being returned for TDs this season that it should be made a little easier to return interceptions now.

(c) And you're a liar...about me. You said that I was against ALGs and your only support for it was a post I had made calling for more parity between dots.

Can we please keep this discussion to the actual issue of getting this ridiculous "fix" remedied? It really doesn't matter what the NFL stats are doing in comparison to GLB for this topic. This is simply an issue of allowing defensive players who make a clean catch of a pass in space to remain on their feet.

Originally posted by Ken1
-1 if it leads to more Pick Sixes than real football

-1 to this. GLB does not need to try to "mimic" real football on any level. Despite some similar rules, dotball stands on its own.

+1 to the OP

+1
GLB can mimic the NFL in certain ways but not in the actual game play it's self, at least not entirely. To put this in perspective, when was the last time anyone has seen any pro or college team score over 100 points in a single game, but yet it happens in GLB all the time. Point being GLB cannot be like real football and besides in real football players who get interceptions don't always fall down so how is that similar to the NFL?

Originally posted by Ken1
(a) I never outright said that. I did imply it, but I never said it. I said "IF 10% of fumbles that are returned go for TD's." It shouldn't be seen as anything other than an estimate, as it was followed by "if 100% of all such fumble returns are on YouTube" which is probably right but obviously an estimate. It sure as all hell shouldn't stop anyone from believing me when I can link to proof, as I can with NFL stats, which you won't admit.


You also never addressed his argument about fumbles returns being impossible in the current sim. Yes, we all know that fumble returns used to be overpowered, but they were nerfed so hard that they can't happen anymore. You claim that the new changes bring more parity and more realism to the game, and yet refuse to address the lack of parity and realism in defensive scoring. Part of being a good DC is taking advantage of weaknesses on the O and scoring when you can.

You claim that simply forcing a turnover is enough of a bone to throw to us when we say D can't contribute to the game. That's bullshit, don't peddle that crap as if it should be good enough. We want to be able to do everything that an NFL team can do. We want to move out of beta, we want to get to that point where this simulation actually reflects football in all aspects. This game can't leave beta if defenders can't attempt to pick up fumbles on the run. This game can't leave beta if defenders can't catch an interception without falling down. This game can't leave beta if attributes and SA's, don't matter at all on Special Teams. This game can't leave beta if punt's can't be blocked.

We want realism in all aspects, not just in a few aspects with bandages elsewhere. If you can't understand why we're so peeved by these updates, then get out of the thread, as you can't respond to any of our posts if you don't understand what we're talking about. You don't have to agree with our grievances, but you do need to understand what our grievances are.

This isn't football, it's bullshit, simply put.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
Originally posted by Ken1

(a) I never outright said that. I did imply it, but I never said it. I said "IF 10% of fumbles that are returned go for TD's." It shouldn't be seen as anything other than an estimate, as it was followed by "if 100% of all such fumble returns are on YouTube" which is probably right but obviously an estimate. It sure as all hell shouldn't stop anyone from believing me when I can link to proof, as I can with NFL stats, which you won't admit.


You also never addressed his argument about fumbles returns being impossible in the current sim. Yes, we all know that fumble returns used to be overpowered, but they were nerfed so hard that they can't happen anymore. You claim that the new changes bring more parity and more realism to the game, and yet refuse to address the lack of parity and realism in defensive scoring. Part of being a good DC is taking advantage of weaknesses on the O and scoring when you can.

You claim that simply forcing a turnover is enough of a bone to throw to us when we say D can't contribute to the game. That's bullshit, don't peddle that crap as if it should be good enough. We want to be able to do everything that an NFL team can do. We want to move out of beta, we want to get to that point where this simulation actually reflects football in all aspects. This game can't leave beta if defenders can't attempt to pick up fumbles on the run. This game can't leave beta if defenders can't catch an interception without falling down. This game can't leave beta if attributes and SA's, don't matter at all on Special Teams. This game can't leave beta if punt's can't be blocked.

We want realism in all aspects, not just in a few aspects with bandages elsewhere. If you can't understand why we're so peeved by these updates, then get out of the thread, as you can't respond to any of our posts if you don't understand what we're talking about. You don't have to agree with our grievances, but you do need to understand what our grievances are.

This isn't football, it's bullshit, simply put.

You aren't going to get anywhere with this. Ken1 only cares about realism as it pertains to quarterbacks and passing numbers. At best he'll just ignore the fact that fumbles and interceptions can't be returned or bring up passing stats which have no bearing on this suggestion and at worst he is willing to lie and make up statistics to push that agenda.

Originally posted by .spider.
+1 on the ones that are Int'd in space, but the ones in traffic or off of deflections should stay as in actually like that change. But yeah, the ones in space should have a chance for a clean return.

Still the best thing anyone has posted in this thread.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
You also never addressed his argument about fumbles returns being impossible in the current sim. Yes, we all know that fumble returns used to be overpowered, but they were nerfed so hard that they can't happen anymore. You claim that the new changes bring more parity and more realism to the game, and yet refuse to address the lack of parity and realism in defensive scoring. Part of being a good DC is taking advantage of weaknesses on the O and scoring when you can.

You claim that simply forcing a turnover is enough of a bone to throw to us when we say D can't contribute to the game. That's bullshit, don't peddle that crap as if it should be good enough. We want to be able to do everything that an NFL team can do. We want to move out of beta, we want to get to that point where this simulation actually reflects football in all aspects. This game can't leave beta if defenders can't attempt to pick up fumbles on the run. This game can't leave beta if defenders can't catch an interception without falling down. This game can't leave beta if attributes and SA's, don't matter at all on Special Teams. This game can't leave beta if punt's can't be blocked.

We want realism in all aspects, not just in a few aspects with bandages elsewhere. If you can't understand why we're so peeved by these updates, then get out of the thread, as you can't respond to any of our posts if you don't understand what we're talking about. You don't have to agree with our grievances, but you do need to understand what our grievances are.

You can ignore Mr. Noise, who just likes to troll me, and whose perspective of inflated stats across the board is at complete odds with mine.

I understand the arguments. While the fumble-returns-for-TDs are more frequent (four times as much, in fact) in real life than I thought they probably were, I understand not wanting to give up that 4%...but to say we can't leave Beta without that 4% is overboard IMO. Sorry if you don't think a turnover is a big play regardless. Do you not train your RBs in Carrying or the Cover Up SA or Mr. Reliable, because fumbles aren't that big of a deal? Do you only put Carrying on receivers to avoid KL?

Fumbles are still a big deal, returned or not.

To me, what I don't understand is the complaining that a change was made at all, as if most fumbles should be returned for significant yardage. I worry about heading back there and going well over 4%.

On interceptions, I definitely understand the point, and I don't even fully disagree. Assuming Mr. Noise was accurate that 10% of real life picks are Pick Sixes, it likely has to be more possible to avoid falling down when making an interception than it is now (assuming it's well under 10% now). The only argument I fail to see at all is that of those who think there should have been no change at all and that three times as many picks as in real life should have been Pick Sixes. They probably overshot the mark though.

Thank you for disagreeing without being overly disagreeable.

You think you understand the point, but you don't get it at all. Your posts REEK of fear.
Originally posted by ken1
I worry about heading back there and going well over 4%.

If we followed this same train of thought and it applied it to everything, instead of just the few places where your fear of losing a competitive edge shines through, we probably shouldn't have allowed blocked field goals, out of fear they'd be blocked too often. We probably shouldn't have made defenders have a reaction delay to receivers changing directions mid-route, out of fear that completion percentages would go to high. We probably should have just made it so kick off coverage stopped at the 30 yard line out of fear that they'd get to the ball before the returner.

You don't understand what's going on, you have no clue what it is we want, or why these changes bother us so much. THESE ARE BANDAIDS! Instead of allowing dots to do everything that football players can do and then tweaking the code so that builds and tactics reflected outcomes, Bort has put a bandaid on it.

Originally posted by BortImpersonation
Ohhh too many fumbles are being returned for TD's, but I don't have the time to tweak the formula so it's more realistic... how about we just make every dot fall down when they recover a fumble?
Originally posted by BortImpersonation
Hmmm there are far too many interceptions being returned for touchdowns, but I don't have time to tweak the formula so it's more realistic... how about we make every dot fall down when they recover a fumble?
Originally posted by BortImpersonation
Nooooo! at lower levels returners and specialty gunners are dominating the special teams MVP rankings due to stat whoring in leagues that lack parity... how about we make ST blocking shit so that returns are more random and a good blocking unit will be meaningless?

They've completely shut the door for any possibility for a defense to be dominant in the same way that an NFL defense can be dominant. They've completely shut the door for any possibility for a Special Teams Unit to be dominant in the same way an NFL ST unit can be. And people like you are scared to have us try to achieve realism because they're scared. You'd much rather have us go with the safe sim, where it's just offense, rather than taking a risk and attempting to evolve into a more complete sim. This is Beta, functionality should be added at every step, and we should be aiming to create a more complete sim, not just bandaging everything we can't fix.

You say you get it, but you don't, you have no clue why this appears to be such a horribly wrong direction for this sim to go in.
I OC, I DC, I've tried my hand at ST's, but I suck, but I at least have a view of the game as a whole and how all of the parts work. I watch a lot of football as well, I know what can be done in real life and what's possible, I'm not just pushing my own agenda here, I really want to see this game continue to improve, we can't stagnate, we can't be moving backwards, we can't avoid all of the hard problems because they are too hard. We need to face them and improve the sim, dots should have the opportunity to do everything a dot in the NFL can do, nothing should be off limits.

MileHigh, you've explained your point of view, and have done so very well. Your point of view is "No Bandages! If there were too many Pick Sixes, they should have figured out how things differed from real life football to create too many Pick Sixes and work it out that way!"

I have to admit that that is ideal, but it isn't always practical. Take all the bandages off, and the patient will bleed to death.

There may be too few interception returns now, and if so that means some of the bandages can be taken off in that area, and as long as they're doing that they might as well keep the falling down all the time when it makes sense (fight over the ball, jumping/diving pick, pick in lots of traffic) while lessening by quite a bit the chance of falling down when it's more of an open pick. Warning, however: Open picks are by their nature more likely to result in Pick Sixes. But with the test server they might be able to work that out.

I will say, however, that I don't see a way to do that for fumbles right now, as a lot of them are recovered by people kind of in the open and the vast majority of real life fumbles aren't returned at all. I definitely feel "better band-aid than grossly unrealistic result," and you and a lot of other people feel the opposite-- although I'd ask you MileHigh, how would you, without band-aids, handle fumbles so that 4% are returned for fumbles, but 90% have no significant return at all without the band-aids?

You have added to my understanding: People like you are angry at the use of band-aids as a means of producing the realistic result, but would be okay with very realistic ways of getting realistic results. I can see how to at least somewhat do that with picks, and even would say I agree (as long as the end result is reasonably realistic). I can't see how with fumbles.

Originally posted by ken1
how would you, without band-aids, handle fumbles so that 4% are returned for fumbles, but 90% have no significant return at all without the band-aids?

I'd like for the ball to have better physics. It doesn't bounce or roll like normal fumbles. It just falls on the ground, even with the improvement Bort made he just made it so that any dot who touched the fumble had to pass an agility check, if they didn't they'd just drop the ball again. He called it bounciness but the ball wasn't bouncing at all. The ball needs to be given a vector upon the point of fumble and then bounce along the ground until it stops.

After that, player recognition of where the ball is located should be a second vision check, relatively easy to pass when there is no pile, but if their is a pile, it should be harder for players to correctly locate the ball.

Next the player needs to have a vision check when they attempt to return the fumble, it should result in the player attempting to fall on the ball, or attempting to run with the ball. The roll to pick up the ball on the run should be difficult, if the ball is moving it should be very difficult and based on agility, confidence, and vision. If the ball is still it should be based a bit easier to pick it up mid-stride, but should still be difficult. If a dot attempts to pick it up mid-stride, and passes the roll, but doesn't do so very well, they should still fall down. And lastly the roll to fall on the ball should be easiest of all to pass, but still not too easy, and should resemble the current fumble recovery system.

This way the players can have the ability to recover fumbles without falling down, while still falling down occasionally. And then we could have a setting in the tactics similar to the interception tactics.

Aggressive - attempt to return fumbles often
semi-aggressive - attempt to return fumbles if no opposing players near
passive - attempt to fall on fumbles without attempting to return them

This way there would be a risk reward system in place where certain players can attempt to return a fumble, but may end up also more likely to fail the fumble recovery. And once the code is in place the values can be tweaked to make the rolls harder or easier to pass based on what we see.

So

1) more bounciness to the ball upon fumbles
2) vision check to find the ball
3) fumble recovery tactics
4) vision check to recover the fumble, and risk reward system in place depending on the type of recovery attempted.

BTW thanks for being civil despite a bit of the anger in my previous post. I also think a similar system should be put into place to fix the pick six problem without nerfing it to all hell. Players should have the chance to stay on their feet, but it shouldn't be based solely on catching, but instead should be based on ball velocity, defender balance at time of catch, and the catching attribute.
Also I disagree about bandages, but only because a lot of the time they just turn into long term solutions. The fumble recovery fall down was implemented at least 13 seasons ago if not more, and hasn't been touched since. If there was a bit more turnaround with bandages I would have no problem with using them (here's a little bit of my fear), but I'm afraid that they will turn into long term solutions, and I'd hate for that to be it.

anyway...

+1 to fixing the fall downs. I would find it hard to believe anyone other than guys who ONLY OC or only own QBs could ever like this recent change. I have a couple of QBs and OC 3 teams btw...

Originally posted by T♠2♠
anyway...

+1 to fixing the fall downs. I would find it hard to believe anyone other than guys who ONLY OC or only own QBs could ever like this recent change. I have a couple of QBs and OC 3 teams btw...

While MileHigh may well have better ideas about how it could have been changed, it had to be changed, as Pick Sixes were way, way too common.

Again, they did probably choose too simple a change (a band-aid), and it's probably going too far in the other direction; but I can't see anyone seeing all the Pick Sixes that were occurring and not realize something had to be done to lessen them.

Edit: May be taken care of now. I just hope it doesn't go too far back the other way, but I always have my worries...from Changelog:

- Intercepting defenders are now much less likely to fall down when no offensive players are nearby