Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Forbin
The slowest WR in the NFL is still pretty damn fast, ya know?

This is pretty much what I was trying to say the entire thread.

Originally posted by JerameEvans
Look at the top WR's in the league most of them are not all that fast comparatively.

... usually you don't want to build sims on statistical anomalies. That's how you build a broken sim. You have to go based on the data that usually works.

40 yard dash times
Median QB time: 4.84
Median RB time: 4.59
WR time: 4.53
DT time: 5.03
NT time: 5.25
LB time: 4.75
CB time: 4.54 <- crazy close to WR times
FS time: 4.59

as you can see though, there is large variation in speed by position. WR and CB are statistically significantly faster than the other positions.

I haven't read most of this thread, but 120 spd, 70 agi end-game is fine for a possession receiver as long as you are hitting catching/jumping hard first and put some equip there.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I haven't read most of this thread, but 120 spd, 70 agi end-game is fine for a possession receiver as long as you are hitting catching/jumping hard first and put some equip there.

Good thing you don't build many dots for Chicago.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
I haven't read most of this thread, but 120 spd, 70 agi end-game is fine for a possession receiver as long as you are hitting catching/jumping hard first and put some equip there.

its great if you are playing in regional pro.

Originally posted by boxman22
... usually you don't want to build sims on statistical anomalies. That's how you build a broken sim. You have to go based on the data that usually works.

40 yard dash times
Median QB time: 4.84
Median RB time: 4.59
WR time: 4.53
DT time: 5.03
NT time: 5.25
LB time: 4.75
CB time: 4.54 <- crazy close to WR times
FS time: 4.59

as you can see though, there is large variation in speed by position. WR and CB are statistically significantly faster than the other positions.

You're telling me 3/4 of a second over 40 yards is significantly faster? At a 40 yard dash that still puts a WR within arms reach of a Nose Tackle. That would certainty put a Nose Tackle in a position to make a play on the ball. It becomes even less significant when you are looking at the fact that most routes are less then 40 yards. Back to my assertions, it is acceleration and the agility that set's the great receivers apart not speed.

Just to drive the point home these guys are even closer to the average Nose Tackle time.

Jerry Rice 4.71
TJ houshmandzadeh 4.61
Wes Welker 4.60
Anquan Boldin 4.70

I could find more, but I think you get the point. You hear so much about 40 times because it's easy to measure and compare. Not because it is the most important stat.

Originally posted by JerameEvans
Just to drive the point home these guys are even closer to the average Nose Tackle time.

Jerry Rice 4.71
TJ houshmandzadeh 4.61
Wes Welker 4.60
Anquan Boldin 4.70

I could find more, but I think you get the point. You hear so much about 40 times because it's easy to measure and compare. Not because it is the most important stat.

Understandable, but the whole point of this thread was that the possesion guys are by no means slow, even jerry rice (the slowest dot you posted) is still faster than LB's, QB's, DT's, and etc. In this game (dot ball) he'd be 130 speed, 110 agility (it's possible btw) but no one wants to hear this, everyone wants to whine that they can't build a 70 speed 145 agility WR.

And yes, 3/4 of a second over 40 yards IS significantly faster when you factor in seperation and just how much you actually need for a QB to thread the needle in real life.

Follow this build plan, see what you get.
Multi train the entire time and enhance agility and speed 2-3x.

Jumping to 74
Agility to 74 (multi train after cap)
Speed to 68 (multi after cap)
Catching to 68
Vision to 61
Carry to 61
Str to 48

Factor in 55 EQ points and tell me why you refuse to build this and instead whine about (durf but I can't build 50 speed 160 agility!!)

These are also times without pads on.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
Understandable, but the whole point of this thread was that the possesion guys are by no means slow, even jerry rice (the slowest dot you posted) is still faster than LB's, QB's, DT's, and etc. In this game (dot ball) he'd be 130 speed, 110 agility (it's possible btw) but no one wants to hear this, everyone wants to whine that they can't build a 70 speed 145 agility WR.

And yes, 3/4 of a second over 40 yards IS significantly faster when you factor in seperation and just how much you actually need for a QB to thread the needle in real life.

Follow this build plan, see what you get.
Multi train the entire time and enhance agility and speed 2-3x.

Jumping to 74
Agility to 74 (multi train after cap)
Speed to 68 (multi after cap)
Catching to 68
Vision to 61
Carry to 61
Str to 48

Factor in 55 EQ points and tell me why you refuse to build this and instead whine about (durf but I can't build 50 speed 160 agility!!)


Wow. I never whined about building anything. I think you might be confusing my posts with someone else’s. I have no problem with this sim requiring more speed. In fact I will be building that way. My objection is solely to the assertion that this is somehow a realistic reflection of the NFL. GLB is a pretty good sim, but all sims are a simplification of the real thing that is just how it is. I have no problem with that.

Now as to the debate at hand you make a couple of interesting assumptions as well.

First off no quarterback is threading the needle on a 40 yard go route. It's just not going to happen. The QB is going to throw an arked ball and the hope is to lead the WR through the catch. So I won't even bother replying to that.

3/4 of a second on a 40 equates to about a step to a step and a half behind. This is plenty close enough for a player with good hips to try and make a play on the ball at its highest point or a player with strength to break up the pass.

If you look carefully at Jerry Rice's stats they the difference between him and the average LB is the same as the difference between him and the average CB. I can't ever think of a play where a LB was man up with Jerry Rice. However rice still managed to have vast caverns of separation all the time. That is because he "played faster then his 40 time." It really came down to his ability to sell fake route and his ability to make cuts without losing any speed. So the CB he was facing would easily burn him in the 40 but when the CB took a miss step and then tried to catch him on post, he was long gone and already had the ball.

To continue to assert that speed is paramount for a WR in the NFL is an over simplification of the game. and just plain wrong. It's not a track meet. At the end of the day no one care's how you got to the goal line only that you got here. How often to you honestly see a player running a go route and having the pall thrown to him? Once, maybe twice per game on average. That is because for the most part everyone in the NFL has incredible speed. You simply don't win football games by out running the other team.

Originally posted by JerameEvans
Wow. I never whined about building anything. I think you might be confusing my posts with someone else’s. I have no problem with this sim requiring more speed. In fact I will be building that way. My objection is solely to the assertion that this is somehow a realistic reflection of the NFL. GLB is a pretty good sim, but all sims are a simplification of the real thing that is just how it is. I have no problem with that.

Now as to the debate at hand you make a couple of interesting assumptions as well.

First off no quarterback is threading the needle on a 40 yard go route. It's just not going to happen. The QB is going to throw an arked ball and the hope is to lead the WR through the catch. So I won't even bother replying to that.

3/4 of a second on a 40 equates to about a step to a step and a half behind. This is plenty close enough for a player with good hips to try and make a play on the ball at its highest point or a player with strength to break up the pass.

If you look carefully at Jerry Rice's stats they the difference between him and the average LB is the same as the difference between him and the average CB. I can't ever think of a play where a LB was man up with Jerry Rice. However rice still managed to have vast caverns of separation all the time. That is because he "played faster then his 40 time." It really came down to his ability to sell fake route and his ability to make cuts without losing any speed. So the CB he was facing would easily burn him in the 40 but when the CB took a miss step and then tried to catch him on post, he was long gone and already had the ball.

To continue to assert that speed is paramount for a WR in the NFL is an over simplification of the game. and just plain wrong. It's not a track meet. At the end of the day no one care's how you got to the goal line only that you got here. How often to you honestly see a player running a go route and having the pall thrown to him? Once, maybe twice per game on average. That is because for the most part everyone in the NFL has incredible speed. You simply don't win football games by out running the other team.


I guess we're both not really arguing with each other.
I posted my agi based WR earlier and the main thrust of my post was that pre-archetypes, 90 agi was about as high as you could take it to be effective and create "vast caverns of space" between your dot and coverage, and my WR has 92 Agi, and once he hits lvl 72 will have 130 speed.
With archetypes, I would say to create a real possesion receiver, you would need to hit 110 agi, and 130 speed.

The reason speed is important for fake WR's (as posted earlier by me)

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
You need a certain amount of speed to make your fakes effective, they only last for a short while and you have to create enough seperation while the defender is either immobile or going in the wrong direction. Quick Cut is a must, if I could re-do this build he would have at least 9 Quick cut, however I'm happy with his agility, 92 is enough to make him agile, and mobile.

How useful would your fakes be with only 90 speed? Imagine how quickly the defender will catch you again, you have to strike the right balance so you have as wide of a window as possible after the fake before your defender catches you again. The wider your window the more damage you can do in THIS game. That's the way THIS game is set up.

IRL one or two steps of separation is sometimes all you need to make a pass undefendable.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes

I guess we're both not really arguing with each other.

LOL I guess not. I appreciate all the information about the sim. I am still trying to decide how exactly to build but ultimately I will have speed up around 120 or so. I'm considering more take speed higher and sooner then you list above, but I haven't decided yet. Ultimately I'm looking for a goal line/ 3rd down machine so I will have to decide between strength or agility/spin. Maybe a bit of both...

Originally posted by JerameEvans
LOL I guess not. I appreciate all the information about the sim. I am still trying to decide how exactly to build but ultimately I will have speed up around 120 or so. I'm considering more take speed higher and sooner then you list above, but I haven't decided yet. Ultimately I'm looking for a goal line/ 3rd down machine so I will have to decide between strength or agility/spin. Maybe a bit of both...




I'm about to start building a WR built like a combo back for almost exclusive screen and short route use.
130 speed
92 agi
81 car
79 str
52 jum
74 catch

bottom SA tree of
5-9-5-9-9
Bonus SA of Power Through at 8

AEQ
spin,
brk %
fak %
cat %

Counting on CB's and safeties leaving tacklign and STR at absurdly low levels, gonna go for YAC and QF, and Slip, and Poss Rec, with 6 Mr. Reliable.

We'll see if this kind of build is still viable 400 days from now, but don't really see CB or Safety builds changing anytime soon.

What kind of numbers will you be seeing for your GL/3d build? Are you going the same basic route as me, or aiming for more possession receiver with higher jumping?