San Diego Chargers
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Punker2p2
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Originally posted by billthekill
Let me try to classify the different "types" of DC's.
The "Bad" DC: This guy pretty much uses a "vanilla" 4-3/3-4 for 80%+ of his plays. He'll make minor tweaks if there are 3WR sets or the offense goes into goalline formations. Very little to no scouting. This is about 70% or more of the DC out there.
The "OK" DC: This guy has an input/output for every formation the offense throws at them. Some of them also adds in down and distant input/output. They will scout the other team play selection (often using the firefox monkey script) and change a few of the output %. But, overall the adjustment are extremely minor. They set up their defense AI at the begining of the season and it a "set it and forget it" scheme. Around 25% of the DC plays this way.
The "Good" DC: This guy will scout 3 or 4 games of the opponents last games. He will watch every single replay. Collect a large data base with the goal of figuring out what the opponent's offense output/input are just by watching his game. Very time consumming that takes a minimum of 3 hours. He has a specific defense scheme that may be completely different from the previous game. He is able to be more aggressive because he can do risk analysis against another team. For example: He scouts a team that runs 100% of the time on 3rd and 0-3 yards. He can go with the goalline defense to shut them out because of his scouting. This accounts for less than 5% of the DC out there.
...
I think most of you who aren't complaining over this falls under the "OK" DC. While the guys who are pissed off are the "good" DC.
I think this is a good summary of the various DC levels. I think the analysis, however, should focus on how the new offensive AI affects various matchups.
Bad DC vs Bad OC - no difference
Bad DC vs OK OC - new AI creates more advantage for offense
Bad DC vs Good OC - new AI is near guarantee win for offensive
OK DC vs Bad OC - new AI creates more advantage for defense
OK DC vs OK OC - I believe minimal difference, perhaps slight edge to offense
OK DC vs Good OC - new AI creates substantial edge for offense
Good DC vs Bad OC - new AI is substantial edge for defense
Good DC vs OK OC - new AI is an edge for defense
Good DC vs Good OC - new AI is an edge for offense
So, I'm not sure that a good DC is going to necessarily be upset - it's going to be much easier to beat lazy OCs, and you're right - a guessing game against a good OC who changes things up frequently. I like the guessing aspect and think it moves the game more to approximate real football.
Let me try to classify the different "types" of DC's.
The "Bad" DC: This guy pretty much uses a "vanilla" 4-3/3-4 for 80%+ of his plays. He'll make minor tweaks if there are 3WR sets or the offense goes into goalline formations. Very little to no scouting. This is about 70% or more of the DC out there.
The "OK" DC: This guy has an input/output for every formation the offense throws at them. Some of them also adds in down and distant input/output. They will scout the other team play selection (often using the firefox monkey script) and change a few of the output %. But, overall the adjustment are extremely minor. They set up their defense AI at the begining of the season and it a "set it and forget it" scheme. Around 25% of the DC plays this way.
The "Good" DC: This guy will scout 3 or 4 games of the opponents last games. He will watch every single replay. Collect a large data base with the goal of figuring out what the opponent's offense output/input are just by watching his game. Very time consumming that takes a minimum of 3 hours. He has a specific defense scheme that may be completely different from the previous game. He is able to be more aggressive because he can do risk analysis against another team. For example: He scouts a team that runs 100% of the time on 3rd and 0-3 yards. He can go with the goalline defense to shut them out because of his scouting. This accounts for less than 5% of the DC out there.
...
I think most of you who aren't complaining over this falls under the "OK" DC. While the guys who are pissed off are the "good" DC.
I think this is a good summary of the various DC levels. I think the analysis, however, should focus on how the new offensive AI affects various matchups.
Bad DC vs Bad OC - no difference
Bad DC vs OK OC - new AI creates more advantage for offense
Bad DC vs Good OC - new AI is near guarantee win for offensive
OK DC vs Bad OC - new AI creates more advantage for defense
OK DC vs OK OC - I believe minimal difference, perhaps slight edge to offense
OK DC vs Good OC - new AI creates substantial edge for offense
Good DC vs Bad OC - new AI is substantial edge for defense
Good DC vs OK OC - new AI is an edge for defense
Good DC vs Good OC - new AI is an edge for offense
So, I'm not sure that a good DC is going to necessarily be upset - it's going to be much easier to beat lazy OCs, and you're right - a guessing game against a good OC who changes things up frequently. I like the guessing aspect and think it moves the game more to approximate real football.
PSUScott1
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I think billthekill has a very misunderstood view of what it takes to be a good coordinator.
If you come up with a solid, balanced gameplan, you don't need to scout every play of 4 games to figure out how to play defense.
If you come up with a solid, balanced gameplan, you don't need to scout every play of 4 games to figure out how to play defense.
billthekill
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Originally posted by PSUScott1
I think billthekill has a very misunderstood view of what it takes to be a good coordinator.
If you come up with a solid, balanced gameplan, you don't need to scout every play of 4 games to figure out how to play defense.
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
I think billthekill has a very misunderstood view of what it takes to be a good coordinator.
If you come up with a solid, balanced gameplan, you don't need to scout every play of 4 games to figure out how to play defense.
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
Last edited Nov 8, 2008 21:10:24
billthekill
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Originally posted by Punker2p2
Good DC vs OK OC - new AI is an edge for defense
Good DC vs Good OC - new AI is an edge for offense
For the most part, I agree with your assessment. However,I would say the gap between a Good DC vs OK OC and Good DC vs Good OC is extremely narrow.
I don't really mind if the OC has an advantage over the DC or visa versa because you will receive that exact same advantage when when you have the ball.
What I don't like is that there is no long anything to gain by extensive scouting.
Good DC vs OK OC - new AI is an edge for defense
Good DC vs Good OC - new AI is an edge for offense
For the most part, I agree with your assessment. However,I would say the gap between a Good DC vs OK OC and Good DC vs Good OC is extremely narrow.
I don't really mind if the OC has an advantage over the DC or visa versa because you will receive that exact same advantage when when you have the ball.
What I don't like is that there is no long anything to gain by extensive scouting.
PSUScott1
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Originally posted by billthekill
Originally posted by PSUScott1
I think billthekill has a very misunderstood view of what it takes to be a good coordinator.
If you come up with a solid, balanced gameplan, you don't need to scout every play of 4 games to figure out how to play defense.
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
You did a LOT more work than you needed to. Trust me.
Originally posted by PSUScott1
I think billthekill has a very misunderstood view of what it takes to be a good coordinator.
If you come up with a solid, balanced gameplan, you don't need to scout every play of 4 games to figure out how to play defense.
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
You did a LOT more work than you needed to. Trust me.
Punker2p2
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Originally posted by billthekill
Originally posted by Punker2p2
Good DC vs OK OC - new AI is an edge for defense
Good DC vs Good OC - new AI is an edge for offense
...
What I don't like is that there is no long anything to gain by extensive scouting.
See, here I disagree - if you play against an OK OC, you can really gain a ton by scouting. I also believe that a good OC is going to absolutely annihilate an OK DC, whereas they'll just have an advantage against a good DC.
I actually believe that scouting will be much more useful this year on D than in previous years. There are more defensive absolute sell out to stop one play type options that you can be reasonably sure will work the way you want.
Originally posted by Punker2p2
Good DC vs OK OC - new AI is an edge for defense
Good DC vs Good OC - new AI is an edge for offense
...
What I don't like is that there is no long anything to gain by extensive scouting.
See, here I disagree - if you play against an OK OC, you can really gain a ton by scouting. I also believe that a good OC is going to absolutely annihilate an OK DC, whereas they'll just have an advantage against a good DC.
I actually believe that scouting will be much more useful this year on D than in previous years. There are more defensive absolute sell out to stop one play type options that you can be reasonably sure will work the way you want.
LulzDot
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As an OC I don't know a whole lot about DC and the like. It isn't what I have dumped my time into. Bleedsorangeandblue is the one who spends a lot of time doing his defensive magic. I think that a good OC will be able to put at least 40 to 50 points on the board. I don't see any defense within probably 3 or 4 levels higher than us being able to stop us. I have generally 10-25 outputs for a single input now and have been able to get rid of all the bad plays. I have also been working on 3-4 different setups depending on what I can see teams struggle with defensively.
But if someone isn't using the new AI fully or doesn't know how to use it I agree a strong DC can shut down the offensive side of things. I know that this year at least in the starting scrimmages there have been a lot of complete blowouts in our Canada BBB league. Not sure if this is due to how some people are planning or if this is mainly due to farm teams.
But I have also seen some games where the defense held their opponents to under 100 yards.
So I do think that the edge has shifted to the offense whereas last year it was in the defensive side. Hopefully next year brings some defensive help to those DC who do put in a lot of time and effort in this where it becomes more of a strategy and build than anything else.
But if someone isn't using the new AI fully or doesn't know how to use it I agree a strong DC can shut down the offensive side of things. I know that this year at least in the starting scrimmages there have been a lot of complete blowouts in our Canada BBB league. Not sure if this is due to how some people are planning or if this is mainly due to farm teams.
But I have also seen some games where the defense held their opponents to under 100 yards.
So I do think that the edge has shifted to the offense whereas last year it was in the defensive side. Hopefully next year brings some defensive help to those DC who do put in a lot of time and effort in this where it becomes more of a strategy and build than anything else.
Billy Corman
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Originally posted by PSUScott1
Originally posted by billthekill
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
You did a LOT more work than you needed to. Trust me.
I'll take my 14-2/4-0 run while defeating the 16-0 team in the Championship Game as an "OK" D-Co any day.
I am not spending 3 hours scouting for each of the 3 teams I D-Co every other day. All 3 on "my" teams made the playoffs.
1] Out-leveled by 5 each game and made the playoffs as #7 Seed, Lost first round [Highlight was winning 3 of 4 games in a stretch by a total of 8 points].
2] 14-2/2-1 13-Capper team I did not recruit for and took over halfway through the season.
3] 14-2/4-0 SE Asia AA#1 Champions.
Originally posted by billthekill
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
You did a LOT more work than you needed to. Trust me.
I'll take my 14-2/4-0 run while defeating the 16-0 team in the Championship Game as an "OK" D-Co any day.
I am not spending 3 hours scouting for each of the 3 teams I D-Co every other day. All 3 on "my" teams made the playoffs.
1] Out-leveled by 5 each game and made the playoffs as #7 Seed, Lost first round [Highlight was winning 3 of 4 games in a stretch by a total of 8 points].
2] 14-2/2-1 13-Capper team I did not recruit for and took over halfway through the season.
3] 14-2/4-0 SE Asia AA#1 Champions.
Last edited Nov 9, 2008 09:09:45
PSUScott1
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Originally posted by Billy Corman
Originally posted by PSUScott1
Originally posted by billthekill
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
You did a LOT more work than you needed to. Trust me.
I'll take my 14-2/4-0 run while defeating the 16-0 team in the Championship Game as an "OK" D-Co any day.
I am not spending 3 hours scouting for each of the 3 teams I D-Co every other day. All 3 on "my" teams made the playoffs.
1] Out-leveled by 5 each game and made the playoffs as #7 Seed, Lost first round [Highlight was winning 3 of 4 games in a stretch by a total of 8 points].
2] 14-2/2-1 13-Capper team I did not recruit for and took over halfway through the season.
3] 14-2/4-0 SE Asia AA#1 Champions.
I'm not saying you did a bad job or anything like that. I just really think all of the scouting that you described above wasn't necessary, and you would have had the same results with a lot less work and a more general strategy.
Originally posted by PSUScott1
Originally posted by billthekill
I don't think you would even know what to look for if you were to scout replays. You are probably more of a set up the defense for the whole year DC and make a few adjustment here and there. There is a lots of good tibits you can come up that will help you in games with intense scouting. The problem is that most people don't know what to look for.
Setting up a good defense AI is simple and doesn't take that much work. The fun part was on DC was getting an extra edge with intense scouting. Now the intense scouting doesn't really help that much and thus is not worth the trouble. So, yeah I'll agree to your "you don't need to scout every play of 4 game..." statement NOW. But, that was not the case last season.
You did a LOT more work than you needed to. Trust me.
I'll take my 14-2/4-0 run while defeating the 16-0 team in the Championship Game as an "OK" D-Co any day.
I am not spending 3 hours scouting for each of the 3 teams I D-Co every other day. All 3 on "my" teams made the playoffs.
1] Out-leveled by 5 each game and made the playoffs as #7 Seed, Lost first round [Highlight was winning 3 of 4 games in a stretch by a total of 8 points].
2] 14-2/2-1 13-Capper team I did not recruit for and took over halfway through the season.
3] 14-2/4-0 SE Asia AA#1 Champions.
I'm not saying you did a bad job or anything like that. I just really think all of the scouting that you described above wasn't necessary, and you would have had the same results with a lot less work and a more general strategy.
Billy Corman
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PSUScott1, you have me mixed-up with the other guy. You and I are on the same page. I won a Championship being an "OK" DC and all my teams made the playoffs.
No way do I invest 9 hours every other day.
No way do I invest 9 hours every other day.
Originally posted by billthekill
What I don't like is that there is no long anything to gain by extensive scouting.
Didn't you say earlier in this thread that 95% of DCs set their strategy at the start of the season? What make you believe that OCs are any different? If your statement holds true, scouting would be even more important this year against 95% of the teams you face.
What I don't like is that there is no long anything to gain by extensive scouting.
Didn't you say earlier in this thread that 95% of DCs set their strategy at the start of the season? What make you believe that OCs are any different? If your statement holds true, scouting would be even more important this year against 95% of the teams you face.
billthekill
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Originally posted by Billy Corman
I'll take my 14-2/4-0 run while defeating the 16-0 team in the Championship Game as an "OK" D-Co any day.
I am not spending 3 hours scouting for each of the 3 teams I D-Co every other day. All 3 on "my" teams made the playoffs.
1] Out-leveled by 5 each game and made the playoffs as #7 Seed, Lost first round [Highlight was winning 3 of 4 games in a stretch by a total of 8 points].
2] 14-2/2-1 13-Capper team I did not recruit for and took over halfway through the season.
3] 14-2/4-0 SE Asia AA#1 Champions.
Come on Billy, Records doesn't indicate anything in GLB. Every team is at a different level and it's not a level playing field. Those team that got to start in season one are going to have an advantage over everyone until the decay / force retirement kicks in.
I'll take my 14-2/4-0 run while defeating the 16-0 team in the Championship Game as an "OK" D-Co any day.
I am not spending 3 hours scouting for each of the 3 teams I D-Co every other day. All 3 on "my" teams made the playoffs.
1] Out-leveled by 5 each game and made the playoffs as #7 Seed, Lost first round [Highlight was winning 3 of 4 games in a stretch by a total of 8 points].
2] 14-2/2-1 13-Capper team I did not recruit for and took over halfway through the season.
3] 14-2/4-0 SE Asia AA#1 Champions.
Come on Billy, Records doesn't indicate anything in GLB. Every team is at a different level and it's not a level playing field. Those team that got to start in season one are going to have an advantage over everyone until the decay / force retirement kicks in.
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