Interesting that the 3rd best attribute for a WR to what WRs do is just kind of disregarded. Yet on defense it’s pumped up a ton. 
Forum > Goal Line Blitz > Discussion: Why are 99% of wr's built in a way we KNOW doesn't work?
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Kegatron
Interesting that the 3rd best attribute for a WR to what WRs do is just kind of disregarded. Yet on defense it’s pumped up a ton.
Imho jumping being disregarded concerns me more then vision on WRs, but not saying my view is necessarily correct.
On defense, jumping and vision are both the biggest parts of the PD roll. Vision also lets them react to everything (WR doesn't have to react to the CB, doesn't have to react to any properly thrown ball, etc). Vision does a lot more for defenders since they don't know the routes, don't know the play.
Interesting that the 3rd best attribute for a WR to what WRs do is just kind of disregarded. Yet on defense it’s pumped up a ton.
Imho jumping being disregarded concerns me more then vision on WRs, but not saying my view is necessarily correct.
On defense, jumping and vision are both the biggest parts of the PD roll. Vision also lets them react to everything (WR doesn't have to react to the CB, doesn't have to react to any properly thrown ball, etc). Vision does a lot more for defenders since they don't know the routes, don't know the play.
WiSeIVIaN
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Just throw it out there, not that I'm even a particularly good dotbuilder in my prime...
Possession WR with 120 spd / 120 catching / 90 jumping: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=3228565
Spent s38 in WL: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player_game_log.pl?player_id=3228565&season=38&stat_type=raw
85 targets, 55 catches = 65% completion% when targetted
624 yards = 11.3 ypc and 7.3 ypt
6 TDs = not horrible.
120 spd is probably close to the minimum I'd put on a WR to still be able to move through routes though.
Possession WR with 120 spd / 120 catching / 90 jumping: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=3228565
Spent s38 in WL: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player_game_log.pl?player_id=3228565&season=38&stat_type=raw
85 targets, 55 catches = 65% completion% when targetted
624 yards = 11.3 ypc and 7.3 ypt
6 TDs = not horrible.
120 spd is probably close to the minimum I'd put on a WR to still be able to move through routes though.
Little M
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes
#2 the way the SIM is coded, the primary way WRs get targets is via separation. So you just have to land a Juke or CF, and be fast enough to get separation to draw the target.
#3 CBs have numbers on their side for every contested roll. They have the better ALGs, and the archetypes are perfect.
I think this is a key post.
In order for a WR to be successful, they have to get separation from the WR. The two ways to do this is through speed or fakes. WRs have 5 major attributes, while CBs only have 4 major attributes, so it is almost impossible for a WR to have a significant speed advantage on the CBs. This is why most WRs are built with juke, head fake, catch fake, etc.
#2 the way the SIM is coded, the primary way WRs get targets is via separation. So you just have to land a Juke or CF, and be fast enough to get separation to draw the target.
#3 CBs have numbers on their side for every contested roll. They have the better ALGs, and the archetypes are perfect.
I think this is a key post.
In order for a WR to be successful, they have to get separation from the WR. The two ways to do this is through speed or fakes. WRs have 5 major attributes, while CBs only have 4 major attributes, so it is almost impossible for a WR to have a significant speed advantage on the CBs. This is why most WRs are built with juke, head fake, catch fake, etc.
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Little M
it is almost impossible for a WR to have a significant speed advantage on the CBs
We should focus on this word, no?
it is almost impossible for a WR to have a significant speed advantage on the CBs
We should focus on this word, no?
is your OC's use (or lack of use) of custom read progressions sabotaging your WR's performance? you may be entitled to compensation!
Originally posted by Little M
I think this is a key post.
In order for a WR to be successful, they have to get separation from the WR. The two ways to do this is through speed or fakes. WRs have 5 major attributes, while CBs only have 4 major attributes, so it is almost impossible for a WR to have a significant speed advantage on the CBs. This is why most WRs are built with juke, head fake, catch fake, etc.
Agree. For almost a decade (or maybe it was a decade... gettin old) as a Scout, and before I decided to dip my toes into the OC waters, I would watch thousands of replays over that time and I could see what you say.
Best chance for a completion comes from any receiver that gets forgotten by the DC and finds open space.
Next would be the receiver that can get themselves open through the use of route breaks and fakes (QB or Receiver or both).
Next would be any receiver that could find themselves with 1-on-1 coverage and no help from anywhere else. Here is where me and Wise totally agree on Receiver height (and the need for SOME jumping, for sure). Those old style 'short-for-speed' builds just get deflected to death.
Next would be what I use to call 'the lucky catch'. Generally 2 or more defenders around receiver but the receiver still makes the catch. You can give a long litany of whys... which rolls were won and why... but the only main things I saw that mattered most were Height+any Jumping and Catching Ability+strength. It's why I built Power WR's for quite a while but I made some mistakes with them so they were great at blocking... mediocre at catching. I'll probably try them again.
Note I get where Wise is both coming from and going to... but I also know it's been done before with limited success. Perhaps it's time to revisit those things again. One thing to keep in mind though is what's changed in the trenches. I can tell you that even the very best O-line dots struggle to hold up against a great defensive pass rush... especially when defenses use multiple blitz packages such as CB blitzes and LB blitzes. I've always thought more vision for O-linemen would help but, still... QB's have a limited time for a clean throw window. After that they're dancing which causes accuracy issues... or feeling pressure which causes the same. Wait a tic longer and they're just cannon fodder for sack monsters. So super speed WR's really need to have separation in the 1st 2 or 3 seconds (tics of the GLB clock) or there's no way that pass is coming.
I think this is a key post.
In order for a WR to be successful, they have to get separation from the WR. The two ways to do this is through speed or fakes. WRs have 5 major attributes, while CBs only have 4 major attributes, so it is almost impossible for a WR to have a significant speed advantage on the CBs. This is why most WRs are built with juke, head fake, catch fake, etc.
Agree. For almost a decade (or maybe it was a decade... gettin old) as a Scout, and before I decided to dip my toes into the OC waters, I would watch thousands of replays over that time and I could see what you say.
Best chance for a completion comes from any receiver that gets forgotten by the DC and finds open space.
Next would be the receiver that can get themselves open through the use of route breaks and fakes (QB or Receiver or both).
Next would be any receiver that could find themselves with 1-on-1 coverage and no help from anywhere else. Here is where me and Wise totally agree on Receiver height (and the need for SOME jumping, for sure). Those old style 'short-for-speed' builds just get deflected to death.
Next would be what I use to call 'the lucky catch'. Generally 2 or more defenders around receiver but the receiver still makes the catch. You can give a long litany of whys... which rolls were won and why... but the only main things I saw that mattered most were Height+any Jumping and Catching Ability+strength. It's why I built Power WR's for quite a while but I made some mistakes with them so they were great at blocking... mediocre at catching. I'll probably try them again.
Note I get where Wise is both coming from and going to... but I also know it's been done before with limited success. Perhaps it's time to revisit those things again. One thing to keep in mind though is what's changed in the trenches. I can tell you that even the very best O-line dots struggle to hold up against a great defensive pass rush... especially when defenses use multiple blitz packages such as CB blitzes and LB blitzes. I've always thought more vision for O-linemen would help but, still... QB's have a limited time for a clean throw window. After that they're dancing which causes accuracy issues... or feeling pressure which causes the same. Wait a tic longer and they're just cannon fodder for sack monsters. So super speed WR's really need to have separation in the 1st 2 or 3 seconds (tics of the GLB clock) or there's no way that pass is coming.
Edited by Theo Wizzago on Jul 22, 2022 18:06:03
Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
While I appreciate the response, this is the most confusing sentence I've ever read, and I have no idea what it means.
You said unless you are churning out 170 speed Wr's. And War said see Space and Titan. So you confused yourself and thats not WiSe
While I appreciate the response, this is the most confusing sentence I've ever read, and I have no idea what it means.
You said unless you are churning out 170 speed Wr's. And War said see Space and Titan. So you confused yourself and thats not WiSe
Edited by Loonzilla on Jul 22, 2022 22:54:32
I do not agree with this post in anyway, I have had success with little guys in WL. I have witnessed the success of other little guys in WL and frankly this is a Pro OC saying this. Its all about the SA/VA combo and the OC understanding that he need to run an offense based upon the dots he has, not what he wants to do.
Little guys with speed and agility = crossing routes and then you combine then with taller guys and that's curls and deep routes. Then you mix it all up to keep DCs on their toes. Your welcome
Little guys with speed and agility = crossing routes and then you combine then with taller guys and that's curls and deep routes. Then you mix it all up to keep DCs on their toes. Your welcome
Edited by Loonzilla on Jul 22, 2022 23:33:03
Edited by Loonzilla on Jul 22, 2022 23:02:41
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Loonzilla
You said unless you are churning out 170 speed Wr's. And War said see Space and Titan. So you confused yourself and thats not WiSe
What is space? What is titan? We're they 170 spd? Was it effective or ineffect? Dot links? Takeaways?
You said unless you are churning out 170 speed Wr's. And War said see Space and Titan. So you confused yourself and thats not WiSe
What is space? What is titan? We're they 170 spd? Was it effective or ineffect? Dot links? Takeaways?
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Loonzilla
I do not agree with this post in anyway, I have had success with little guys in WL. I have witnessed the success of other little guys in WL and frankly this is a Pro OC saying this. Its all about the SA/VA combo and the OC understanding that he need to run an offense based upon the dots he has, not what he wants to do.
Little guys with speed and agility = crossing routes and then you combine then with taller guys and that's curls and deep routes. Then you mix it all up to keep DCs on their toes. Your welcome
??
I'm just stating the fact that no one In WL throws to outside receivers really (myself included with goat RC on Florida being the exception for 1 team at WR2 kinda). You stating that you disagree and meta wr's are the coolest, with nothing to really back that up, doesn't mean a ton.
People don't do it because they can't get it to work well enough. I'd be willing to bet in pro you aren't able to use them vs competitive teams either, but feel free to link whatever past/present team you OC and I'll take a look.
And wr height absolutely positively effects interceptions in this game.
I do not agree with this post in anyway, I have had success with little guys in WL. I have witnessed the success of other little guys in WL and frankly this is a Pro OC saying this. Its all about the SA/VA combo and the OC understanding that he need to run an offense based upon the dots he has, not what he wants to do.
Little guys with speed and agility = crossing routes and then you combine then with taller guys and that's curls and deep routes. Then you mix it all up to keep DCs on their toes. Your welcome
??
I'm just stating the fact that no one In WL throws to outside receivers really (myself included with goat RC on Florida being the exception for 1 team at WR2 kinda). You stating that you disagree and meta wr's are the coolest, with nothing to really back that up, doesn't mean a ton.
People don't do it because they can't get it to work well enough. I'd be willing to bet in pro you aren't able to use them vs competitive teams either, but feel free to link whatever past/present team you OC and I'll take a look.
And wr height absolutely positively effects interceptions in this game.
Mythology
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
What is space?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8q6zSMqtzg This is us bro
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?team_id=623 We have been to the show and learned the shit you think you know. You are talking like you are Ryan, Mauler or Hcreek. That's the Mount Rushmore of this game, You have proved nothing and neither have we, so go lay by your dish or its not WiSe AKA DARNCAT
What is space?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8q6zSMqtzg This is us bro
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?team_id=623 We have been to the show and learned the shit you think you know. You are talking like you are Ryan, Mauler or Hcreek. That's the Mount Rushmore of this game, You have proved nothing and neither have we, so go lay by your dish or its not WiSe AKA DARNCAT
Edited by Mythology on Jul 23, 2022 22:27:21
Edited by Mythology on Jul 23, 2022 22:25:24
zz man
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Originally posted by F00tballJunkie
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4767585
17 TDs and 17 INTs
Do you consider this great?
Worth noting that TDs/Int ratio is important but imo the completion rate on this dot was/is never below 60% at Pro level. If that stat isnt "padded" with screens then it gives the d co-ord a real problem no matter the grade of the running game. In fact with a PHB used in certain pass packages it can become a "contain" thing and give huge coverage area problems
I can cover deep pass and I can cover PHB outside but add them together and add in some anti-tagging sets and then it becomes a "How much of each can I plan for" lottery type thing. Also even CBs built to help the run ( 50/70 Str/Tkl) will struggle against that PHB sweep even w/o Blk WRs/TEs.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4767585
17 TDs and 17 INTs
Do you consider this great?
Worth noting that TDs/Int ratio is important but imo the completion rate on this dot was/is never below 60% at Pro level. If that stat isnt "padded" with screens then it gives the d co-ord a real problem no matter the grade of the running game. In fact with a PHB used in certain pass packages it can become a "contain" thing and give huge coverage area problems
I can cover deep pass and I can cover PHB outside but add them together and add in some anti-tagging sets and then it becomes a "How much of each can I plan for" lottery type thing. Also even CBs built to help the run ( 50/70 Str/Tkl) will struggle against that PHB sweep even w/o Blk WRs/TEs.
WiSeIVIaN
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Originally posted by Mythology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8q6zSMqtzg This is us bro
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?team_id=623 We have been to the show and learned the shit you think you know. You are talking like you are Ryan, Mauler or Hcreek. That's the Mount Rushmore of this game, You have proved nothing and neither have we, so go lay by your dish or its not WiSe AKA DARNCAT
Your response is very strange imo.
1. Mauler sucks and just runs an uninventive offense carried by great dots and a great DC. Also Mauler cheats, etc etc etc.
2. I was looking to understand Warlord's comment and what that experience was, since "space and titan" as a comment doesn't actually mean anything. I still don't understand what you guys are trying to say. Are you saying i don't know shit about builds and 113+58=171 spd WR's don't work in WL? Link a player and open the build, if they had been made.
3. This is the last space force WL season: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?season=87&team_id=623
Record: 1-15
Offense: 16.8 PPG
Defense: 58.8 PPG (holy shit btw)
So what did you learn from this experience? I think we can agree WR's have nothing to do with whatever crime against god was happening there on defense.
4. This thread really isn't about my personal OC ability, it's about helping others open their eyes on WR builds. But just fwiw I'm a pretty darn good OC, who's never OC'd a 1-15 WL team nor a 16.8 ppg WL team in many seasons.
5. It's weird for me when you call me DARNCAT...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8q6zSMqtzg This is us bro
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?team_id=623 We have been to the show and learned the shit you think you know. You are talking like you are Ryan, Mauler or Hcreek. That's the Mount Rushmore of this game, You have proved nothing and neither have we, so go lay by your dish or its not WiSe AKA DARNCAT
Your response is very strange imo.
1. Mauler sucks and just runs an uninventive offense carried by great dots and a great DC. Also Mauler cheats, etc etc etc.
2. I was looking to understand Warlord's comment and what that experience was, since "space and titan" as a comment doesn't actually mean anything. I still don't understand what you guys are trying to say. Are you saying i don't know shit about builds and 113+58=171 spd WR's don't work in WL? Link a player and open the build, if they had been made.
3. This is the last space force WL season: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?season=87&team_id=623
Record: 1-15
Offense: 16.8 PPG
Defense: 58.8 PPG (holy shit btw)
So what did you learn from this experience? I think we can agree WR's have nothing to do with whatever crime against god was happening there on defense.
4. This thread really isn't about my personal OC ability, it's about helping others open their eyes on WR builds. But just fwiw I'm a pretty darn good OC, who's never OC'd a 1-15 WL team nor a 16.8 ppg WL team in many seasons.
5. It's weird for me when you call me DARNCAT...
Edited by WiSeIVIaN on Jul 24, 2022 05:55:38
POOPERDOG7
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Your response is very strange imo.
1. Mauler sucks and just runs an uninventive offense carried by great dots and a great DC. Also Mauler cheats, etc etc etc.
2. I was looking to understand Warlord's comment and what that experience was, since "space and titan" as a comment doesn't actually mean anything. I still don't understand what you guys are trying to say. Are you saying i don't know shit about builds and 113+58=171 spd WR's don't work in WL? Link a player and open the build, if they had been made.
3. This is the last space force WL season: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?season=87&team_id=623
Record: 1-15
Offense: 16.8 PPG
Defense: 58.8 PPG (holy shit btw)
So what did you learn from this experience? I think we can agree WR's have nothing to do with whatever crime against god was happening there on defense.
4. This thread really isn't about my personal OC ability, it's about helping others open their eyes on WR builds. But just fwiw I'm a pretty darn good OC, who's never OC'd a 1-15 WL team nor a 16.8 ppg WL team in many seasons.
5. It's weird for me when you call me DARNCAT...
dam my pop corn is out and, my readers are on.
I do like the idea of a bigger stronger wr, so the KL,s dont happen as much and, they will win jump balls and, make catches across the middle or comebacks. The lil guys if they cant get separation wont do you any flavors vs solid defensive CB/SS/FS that can hit and, or deflect passes.
Your response is very strange imo.
1. Mauler sucks and just runs an uninventive offense carried by great dots and a great DC. Also Mauler cheats, etc etc etc.
2. I was looking to understand Warlord's comment and what that experience was, since "space and titan" as a comment doesn't actually mean anything. I still don't understand what you guys are trying to say. Are you saying i don't know shit about builds and 113+58=171 spd WR's don't work in WL? Link a player and open the build, if they had been made.
3. This is the last space force WL season: https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/team.pl?season=87&team_id=623
Record: 1-15
Offense: 16.8 PPG
Defense: 58.8 PPG (holy shit btw)
So what did you learn from this experience? I think we can agree WR's have nothing to do with whatever crime against god was happening there on defense.
4. This thread really isn't about my personal OC ability, it's about helping others open their eyes on WR builds. But just fwiw I'm a pretty darn good OC, who's never OC'd a 1-15 WL team nor a 16.8 ppg WL team in many seasons.
5. It's weird for me when you call me DARNCAT...
dam my pop corn is out and, my readers are on.
I do like the idea of a bigger stronger wr, so the KL,s dont happen as much and, they will win jump balls and, make catches across the middle or comebacks. The lil guys if they cant get separation wont do you any flavors vs solid defensive CB/SS/FS that can hit and, or deflect passes.
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