Warrior General Games

You know some will. If it gives then an eventual WL edge, they will.

Originally posted by Vortus
You know some will. If it gives then an eventual WL edge, they will.

So your answer to improving this game is that every idea that involves someone potentially cheating or exploiting it should not be done anything with? I just don't get it. Again, the confidence bonus is not the most important thing here, but trying to introduce some kind of aspect to the game that will make it more interesting from the start.

No, thats not what I said. I said you know that there are those that will do what it takes to get an edge. Still like the idea and think it should be worked on. I like anything that I think that makes the game more fun from day 1 till the end of plateau. I do regardless. Lvl 79 dots are boring. Nothing to do with them cept watch an occasional game. They are done and in the OC and DC"s hands. However, lower level dots have things going on and are far more interesting.

I think that every aspect of the game should have achievements to work toward.

Recruiters- x amount of dots/agents recruited at X level showing they worked for. Perhaps giving a team a slight income modifier for goals reached. Just a simple example.

Originally posted by cavalier
Then absolutely nobody would give a damn. It has to have an effect on the end build of your player.

We are talking about confidence here, an attribute that most builders neglect anyway. Its not like you would get bonuses to speed, etc.


How do you distinguish these "milestones" as even being meaningful, i.e. achieved said milestone against credible competition instead of against CPU, gutjob, or any other of the scenarios where teams are horribly mismatched by design (level 79 fully plateau'd players in leagues with level 60 somethings)? Need to fix the competition level OR put some serious qualifiers in place as to what is and what isn't considered "milestone competition".

+1

I fear what would happen is that networks would make starter and backup players. The starters would get all of the achievements, the backups would fill out the rosters. Then when they hit level 79, they retire all the backups, put 2 or even 3 teams' worth of starters together on one team, and have a significant advantage. What would prevent this?

Originally posted by tpaterniti
I fear what would happen is that networks would make starter and backup players. The starters would get all of the achievements, the backups would fill out the rosters. Then when they hit level 79, they retire all the backups, put 2 or even 3 teams' worth of starters together on one team, and have a significant advantage. What would prevent this?

the cost of flex

Originally posted by TaySC
I actually agree with this.

The ONLY way to make this game significant at the low levels is to stop punishing players for rounding their builds early to win. As long as there are ALG's and "cookie cutter builds" nothing below peaking will ever matter.



Getting rid of ALGs will make the game very boring. I think people dramatically underestimate how boring building will be if it makes no difference how you build.

This is the type of building system they have on 11strong. Basically you can create a player, leave for a year, then come back and apply all of his SPs and it makes him just as good as if you had built him a little at a time. I know GLB has other things to prevent people leaving for that long. That is an extreme example that I give to make a simple point: when the order in which you build makes no difference at all, then there is nothing really interesting about building. At that point you may as well give us some sort of auto-level program because you can just tell the CPU what you want your player to have at the end and never change anything manually and it would make no difference.

This suggestion also assumes that a big reason the game is not fun at lower levels is that builds are imbalanced. This is certainly a factor but not the only factor. If you look at the marketplace you can find crappy (by end-build standards) level 20 and 30 dots with well-rounded builds, but by and large these do not perform well. A lot of the game is set up to work with a certain caliber of build and often the issue is not that lower level builds are not well-rounded enough, but just that they don't yet have enough SPs to have all the attributes it takes to do certain things. This is kind of an irreducible complexity argument I am making that applies in some, not all, cases.

Yet another issue is the balance of attributes. Consider a WR vs a CB:

WR - 371 build value

Strength: 10
Speed: 80 (114 w/eq)
Agility: 40
Jumping: 10
Stamina: 30
Catching: 65
Vision: 20
Carrying: 20

CB - 371 build value

Strength: 19
Speed: 60 (84 w/ eq)
Agility: 60
Jumping: 40
Stamina: 30
Catching: 10
Vision: 60
Tackling: 30

Swat Ball: 2
Sticky Hands: 4
Super Vision: 7

They have the same build value, but if the two meet in the sim that WR is going to toast that CB all game long since he has 30 more speed than him. What happens then when people build WRs like this? CBs are built similarly to accommodate and you still get very unbalanced builds because the nature of the game forces this to be so even without ALGs. Part of the issue with the above scenario is that SAs are miniscule in worth compared to attributes (and I even chose a pretty good one) and that certain attributes are essential for success. If the WR gets 10 yards behind you every play, who cares if you can tackle or if you have enough vision and Super Vision to avoid fakes?

While I am on this rant, those who play peewee competitively know what QB builds would look like as well at this level: tons of throwing, about 40 vision, 60 strength, minimum speed, agility, carrying, confidence, maybe 30 stamina and 10 Pump Fake. Then as a DB you lose either way. if you build to 80 speed to keep up with WRs you sacrifice vision and get faked out nonstop. If you build enough vision to not get brutalized play after play by fakes you are way too slow for it to even matter.

I feel like the people who suggest getting rid of ALGs have this idea that all of the sudden balanced builds are going to be viable and that these will succeed at the lower levels. This is a fantasy. You can just look at peewee, which for all intents and purposes IS the scenario you want to see. Sure, you get ALGs, but because of how peewee is setup no one really waits around for them or builds very much with them in mind. They are a factor, but a very, very reduced factor, and yet you do not see balanced builds enjoying success in peewee. They are more balanced than non peewees, but still not very balanced.

So you remove ALGs, it doesn't really prevent unbalanced builds even at low levels, and it destroys the most fun thing about the game for many people, which is the strategy of player building. To me this is why it is a bad idea all around. I really wish I could just put the idea out of its misery.

Originally posted by tpaterniti
I fear what would happen is that networks would make starter and backup players. The starters would get all of the achievements, the backups would fill out the rosters. Then when they hit level 79, they retire all the backups, put 2 or even 3 teams' worth of starters together on one team, and have a significant advantage. What would prevent this?

Having players with a confidence above a set level be unhappy about being backups despite their previous achievement cutting their confidence significantly. Same with having several "star" players.

Originally posted by tpaterniti
Getting rid of ALGs will make the game very boring. I think people dramatically underestimate how boring building will be if it makes no difference how you build.

back in season s 1-3 b4 i heard of ALGs, building players was fun. watch a game, see where you sucked and train/apply SPs there. now i see no reason to even build players any more as you have to be cookie cutter or you will suck. its not even worth watching games below regpro since everything wrong on a play will just be attributed to an incomplete build. i really cant believe so many people are willing to wait over a year to see a player perform as intended.

as far as the suggestion goes, sadly, it would get exploited. good idea in concept, but no matter what checks and balances are put into place, history has shown us that people will find an exploit and use it to death.

Originally posted by tpaterniti
I fear what would happen is that networks would make starter and backup players. The starters would get all of the achievements, the backups would fill out the rosters. Then when they hit level 79, they retire all the backups, put 2 or even 3 teams' worth of starters together on one team, and have a significant advantage. What would prevent this?

Make the achievement bonuses count only if the dots are still on the team they earned them with. Promotes team/agent loyalty and makes it impossible for networks to stack players earning achievements on different teams. It would be a radical but fun change to how farm teams work today and might even give some kind of edge to independent teams (not that they especially need it imo)

Originally posted by tpaterniti
NO ALG RANT.

The question on my mind is how the hell the WR has 10 more EQ points than the CB..

Career bonuses are simply more assets that you can plan your players build around - i.e. cut off Confidence a little bit earlier because I can count on those bonuses making up the gap. It's not as simple and innocent as "just give them a couple points of Confidence". Combined with the reality that the better teams with the better coordinators are the ones most likely to reach these Milestones (both in their entirety and in the speed in which they reach them) and what are we really accomplishing in the end here?

I can't see any kind of career long bonuses that add points to a players build being viable.

Originally posted by Golan
Make the achievement bonuses count only if the dots are still on the team they earned them with.


That would kill the few independent successful teams, for instance Alpine, that are mostly build through recruiting.