Warrior General Games

Originally posted by jdbolick
May 13, 2012
- Fixed a bug causing run-blocked defenders to frequently have a tackle-making score of zero or near zero instead of the intended penalty

No, no, I mean actual ingame results, not the change notes. There's people testing players with between 83 and 95 tackling and they can't notice performance to be above 77ish.

Originally posted by Hagalaz
No, no, I mean actual ingame results, not the change notes. There's people testing players with between 83 and 95 tackling and they can't notice performance to be above 77ish.
The changelog is what matters, but as for the other, just use your brain. If tackling up to 77 matters, then why would it magically stop mattering above 77? More tackling does increase the radius and it improves the tackle score.

For a long, long time speed above 68 or so was of really marginal value for DT/NT.

However, the sim has changed quite a bit in the last ten seasons:

Nerfing of the DPC
Addition of a large number of offensive plays
Availability of a much greater number of SPs for DTs (making the speed investment less costly to the rest of the build).
Evolving nature of the LOS interaction and blocking code

All of these have contributed in smallish ways to opening up the DT build towards different paths, and made higher speed a lot more valuable at the DT position.

I don't think I would build a DT with less than 80 tackling...it definitely has value and it's frankly pretty cheap to get it that high. Taking it to 90+ doesn't seem to have the desired effect of creating an impenetrable front at NT/DT, but it does seem to have some value.

Originally posted by jdbolick
More tackling does increase the radius and it improves the tackle score.

It really is something that is noticeable with DTs/NTs. Higher tackling dots have always seemed to get more tackling opportunities as rushers came through the middle. Obviously a dot with higher jumping is a big aid as well given that the majority of missed tackles are of the diving variety.

Originally posted by tautology
All of these have contributed in smallish ways to opening up the DT build towards different paths, and made higher speed a lot more valuable at the DT position.
I don't agree with this simply because there are so few times where the DT gets an opportunity to use speed. Usually it's surge, engage, shed, surge, engage, shed in a slow, stuttering progression towards the quarterback. Even on the rare occasion that a DT gets a sack, it's usually by pushing the lineman back into the QB as opposed to slipping through a gap. Granted, every once in a while you'll get a buggy play where the DT goes completely unblocked and the extra speed could help get to the QB before he can attempt a pass, but that's once in a blue moon.

Originally posted by jdbolick

I don't agree with this simply because there are so few times where the DT gets an opportunity to use speed. Usually it's surge, engage, shed, surge, engage, shed in a slow, stuttering progression towards the quarterback. Even on the rare occasion that a DT gets a sack, it's usually by pushing the lineman back into the QB as opposed to slipping through a gap. Granted, every once in a while you'll get a buggy play where the DT goes completely unblocked and the extra speed could help get to the QB before he can attempt a pass, but that's once in a blue moon.


I'm not even talking about sacks or pass rush...that's a whole different topic and trying to build a high-sack DT is generally an exercise in frustration.

But on a variety of running plays, having decent speed seems to be helpful, oftentimes by pursuing inside out and grabbing a HB on a cutback, or sometimes by cutting down the angles that a HB can take off-tackle. It's also useful for tripping up a run that heads to the other side of the center.

It's not a huge game-breaker, but that extra speed seems to be more useful (relative to other expenditures) than it used to be. And no, I don't think that trying to build real "pursuit" speed is a good idea...anything above 85-90 is likely trying to do something that just isn't useful. But you can make a pretty good case for 80+ speed, and that is different (imo) than the situation 4+ seasons ago.

Fair enough. Because I push strength & agility so hard, I don't have those leftover skill points to take speed into the 80s.

JD has a bit of a point... especially when considering end builds. I would rate skills for DT as follows (in order of importance);
Strength, Agility, Tackling, Vision, Jump, Speed. I believe that if you stop speed at around 75-79, you'll be fine. Just my 2 centavos... and I might be a centavo short.

That's what makes this game fun.....build in different ways and watch your dot sit then bench while my dot takes home the trophy and the girl Just kidding

I would love to see a speed script of DT's just to see how much of a difference or lack of a difference there really is.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
JD has a bit of a point... especially when considering end builds. I would rate skills for DT as follows (in order of importance);
Strength, Agility, Tackling, Vision, Jump, Speed. I believe that if you stop speed at around 75-79, you'll be fine. Just my 2 centavos... and I might be a centavo short.
I wouldn't put jumping above speed and probably not vision either, but I do think jumping is pretty underrated on defensive linemen. I'd like to see a group of them with 60-70 up front just to document how many deflections they create.

Originally posted by jdbolick

I wouldn't put jumping above speed and probably not vision either, but I do think jumping is pretty underrated on defensive linemen. I'd like to see a group of them with 60-70 up front just to document how many deflections they create.

Would you use any VA's to support that jumping or stick with traditional DT VA's?

Depends on the build, but I'd try to make room for Towering Man.

I still don't see where a DT is ever operating on enough open space to ever make a significant investment in speed worth while. I would say 90% of the time a DT is engaged with a blocker so speed seems like a very little used attribute. Better to get strength, agility and tackling as high as possible and pump us SA's instead of worrying about speed.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
JD has a bit of a point... especially when considering end builds. I would rate skills for DT as follows (in order of importance);
Strength, Agility, Tackling, Vision, Jump, Speed. I believe that if you stop speed at around 75-79, you'll be fine. Just my 2 centavos... and I might be a centavo short.

I'm trying to figure out what this build would look like...I guess 85 tackling, 83 Vision, 80 Jumping, 78 speed or so? Not sure how much Str/Agi or SAs you have after building that. Not enough, I would think?

Originally posted by tautology
I'm trying to figure out what this build would look like...I guess 85 tackling, 83 Vision, 80 Jumping, 78 speed or so? Not sure how much Str/Agi or SAs you have after building that. Not enough, I would think?

I'll let you know how it works out. Doing my first since 3 seasons ago. Retired the others for flex before they hit plateau. If... if my old school math works out... according to my spreadsheets, I should see something more like 95 tackling, 80 vision, 78 jumping, and 75 speed. I didn't include stamina and confidence which also get some love... just not top dogs. Daryls61's point about speed is somewhat along my thought lines... I probably would still put more into speed than he might. It does have some value... too little speed and I would worry about the ability of the DT to get to some of the wider plays, like off-tackle plays. Would be kinda nice to hear from someone that didn't put hardly anything into speed for a DT and let others know what they thought and if they still build that way.