Warrior General Games

-1.

GLB biggest weakness is decision making (by dots) . Letting the CBs have the option to screw up big time, not based on the O builds, will guarantee they will do it all the time.

Here is my prediction if suggestion implemented :

- Catch & Bort check it on the test server and very happy as it work perfectly.
- Introduced to the sim it become chaos in two days with CB dumping assignment,
- Day -1 fix by Bort make the vision check to be trivial at pro level as if chance was never made.
- Minors + Causal look like shit all season. People open bugs just to be told 'fix your build', 'lol causal' etc.
- Two season later a team shows up completely around this idea. Their deep passer QB cannot stay in the pocket for 1/2 tick and defenders are being exploited all day long
- After the team has a great run in the WL (just to lose the trophy since their DAI was hacked), admins decide to look at it.
- Over the off-season Bort try a fix which is related to extensive use of #. Changelog mentions a slight adjustment to the vision check.
- Every couple of season someone will complain that it doesn't work well, and CB never bite. These thread will be ignored.

This segment was brought to you by bump and run

+1!!!

Originally posted by tragula
-1.

GLB biggest weakness is decision making (by dots) . Letting the CBs have the option to screw up big time, not based on the O builds, will guarantee they will do it all the time.

Here is my prediction if suggestion implemented :

- Catch & Bort check it on the test server and very happy as it work perfectly.
- Introduced to the sim it become chaos in two days with CB dumping assignment,
- Day -1 fix by Bort make the vision check to be trivial at pro level as if chance was never made.
- Minors + Causal look like shit all season. People open bugs just to be told 'fix your build', 'lol causal' etc.
- Two season later a team shows up completely around this idea. Their deep passer QB cannot stay in the pocket for 1/2 tick and defenders are being exploited all day long
- After the team has a great run in the WL (just to lose the trophy since their DAI was hacked), admins decide to look at it.
- Over the off-season Bort try a fix which is related to extensive use of #. Changelog mentions a slight adjustment to the vision check.
- Every couple of season someone will complain that it doesn't work well, and CB never bite. These thread will be ignored.

This segment was brought to you by bump and run

Your segment covers every change Bort makes.

You are misreading the suggestion though. It is not suggested that a QB tucks to run and CB's leave their man assignment to chase the QB and then the QB can suddenly untuck and pass to an open WR. It is just the opposite. It is being suggested that when a QB tucks to run, a CB that is covering his man assignment would continue to cover his man assignment unless he passes a vision check. If he passes check, he goes after QB, if he fails, he continues to cover his man assignment. The QB can not pass the ball once he has decided to tuck it and run, and it was not suggested that he can in the OP.

eta: I am a DC at heart, and I still +1 this.

Bane, you should re-read the OP all the way to the end. And pay more attention to this line

> 2. If the QB is scrambling (ball NOT tucked) and the defender fails the check, the defender leaves his assignment to chase the > QB (Only applies to A).

I am exactly right.
____

The suggestion is horrible. However if you generate two knew QB SAs : fake run and disguise run, it make more sense. (1) as a SA it is easier to control it at all level of the game (2) It is a SP cost on the QB and not the defense. (3) anti-fake abilities can work against the 'fake run' which is the main danger (used by deep passer to screw up zone defenses)

I see. It was me that misread. Well I guess I just overlooked that part.... So I like the suggestion except that part. My apologies to tragula

Originally posted by tragula
Bane, you should re-read the OP all the way to the end. And pay more attention to this line

> 2. If the QB is scrambling (ball NOT tucked) and the defender fails the check, the defender leaves his assignment to chase the > QB (Only applies to A).

I am exactly right.
____

The suggestion is horrible. However if you generate two knew QB SAs : fake run and disguise run, it make more sense. (1) as a SA it is easier to control it at all level of the game (2) It is a SP cost on the QB and not the defense. (3) anti-fake abilities can work against the 'fake run' which is the main danger (used by deep passer to screw up zone defenses)



I see your point, but I disagree with the idea that the suggestion is bad due to the possibility that implementation is done poorly. That is a separate issue from the suggestion.

As I mentioned in the OP, if a defender is set to man coverage and/or pass focus, they will most likely not leave their assignment. In every level of football, defenders blow an assignment or let a receiver go by them because they think the QB is running or the HB has the ball (play action). I don't think there's anything wrong with adding that here.

Also, the vision checks don't have to stop taking place once the defender has decided to pursue the QB. You could easily have a defender run another vision check once they've started pursuing the QB and re-engage their assignment if they pass that check. It would essentially be a minor hesitation in their coverage. Their receiver would probably be open, but not wide open.

Anyway, this isn't an all or nothing suggestion, if people don't like the idea that a CB could potentially (once in a blue moon) come off of his coverage on a QB scramble, then take that part out.

You miss the real point.

You give the qb an ability to fake a defender with no sp cost. It will never work well, regardless to implementation. This set a vision minimum to play cb (at any level) and totally kill zone defenders.

Once you got rid of the scrambling part, you are left with qb runs. Honestly I see no reason why a qb is different from a rb here. The only reason is that you are pissed that your 300 flex dot is useless. but power backs and many other archetypes are in the same situation, so no reason to give extra love for rQB.

While I think all archtypes should be useable a d nerf to help one archtype is not the answer.

Originally posted by tragula
You miss the real point.

You give the qb an ability to fake a defender with no sp cost. It will never work well, regardless to implementation. This set a vision minimum to play cb (at any level) and totally kill zone defenders.

Once you got rid of the scrambling part, you are left with qb runs. Honestly I see no reason why a qb is different from a rb here. The only reason is that you are pissed that your 300 flex dot is useless. but power backs and many other archetypes are in the same situation, so no reason to give extra love for rQB.

While I think all archtypes should be useable a d nerf to help one archtype is not the answer.

I think you are missing the real point. Defenders should not automatically know that the Qb has tucked the ball on a pass play. You can argue the semantics all you like, but that is the main idea and there really isn't any valid counterpoint to that. The details of my suggestion may be flawed but the principle is not.

Originally posted by Anarcho
I think you are missing the real point. Defenders should not automatically know that the Qb has tucked the ball on a pass play. You can argue the semantics all you like, but that is the main idea and there really isn't any valid counterpoint to that. The details of my suggestion may be flawed but the principle is not.

a tuck and untuck mechanic would solve this "issue"

defenders wont break off if they have to account for another option and wr/te wouldnt instantly start run blocking

Originally posted by tragula
You miss the real point.

You give the qb an ability to fake a defender with no sp cost. It will never work well, regardless to implementation. This set a vision minimum to play cb (at any level) and totally kill zone defenders.

Once you got rid of the scrambling part, you are left with qb runs. Honestly I see no reason why a qb is different from a rb here. The only reason is that you are pissed that your 300 flex dot is useless. but power backs and many other archetypes are in the same situation, so no reason to give extra love for rQB.

While I think all archtypes should be useable a d nerf to help one archtype is not the answer.

If the QB is on a designed run play, all will be as it is now. The idea for a vision check would be ONLY on those instances where the QB can't find a pass on so chooses to run.

doobas™

Originally posted by doobas
If the QB is on a designed run play, all will be as it is now. The idea for a vision check would be ONLY on those instances where the QB can't find a pass on so chooses to run.

doobas™

This. The suggestion is only for pass plays. I don't know if that isn't clear, but it should be.

So I guess it is time to redo the suggestion in a way that describe what you want to say.
1. Only pass plays (make it clear in the OP, cause I missed it) - might as well work for HB draw plays.
2. Remove defenders biting on scrambling QBs (or fix the suggestion).

Making a QB tuck the ball and run on a pass play used to be very easy (maybe is still is). So even for the limited scenario, this can be exploited.

Originally posted by tragula
So I guess it is time to redo the suggestion in a way that describe what you want to say.
1. Only pass plays (make it clear in the OP, cause I missed it) - might as well work for HB draw plays.
2. Remove defenders biting on scrambling QBs (or fix the suggestion).

Making a QB tuck the ball and run on a pass play used to be very easy (maybe is still is). So even for the limited scenario, this can be exploited.



I'm not sure how much clearer it can be when the title specifically states "During Pass Plays" and again states in the actual suggestion "All defenders undergo vision checks during pass plays when..."

And I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the possibility of defenders biting on a scrambling QB. I know you don't agree, and that's fine. There's no point in arguing it because it's all hypothetical. If no one likes that part of the suggestion, I'll take it out. Otherwise I'm going to leave it in.

I don't see how it can be exploited. Yes, you can force the QB to tuck and run on a pass play, but all this suggestion does is slow down the immediate reaction of the defense to when that happens and occasionally (i.e. rarely/almost never for CBs or players with a pass focus and/or in man coverage) create a situation where a receiver is open. Worst case scenario, you get one play in a blue moon where a scrambling QB finds a WR wide open for a TD.

Can I see it being implemented horribly? Yes, but the intention of the suggestion is not for EVERY QB scramble to result in a big play or a wide open WR. It's simply to slow down the reaction of the defense and once in a while open up the potential for a passing play.

Originally posted by Anarcho
I'm not sure how much clearer it can be when the title specifically states "During Pass Plays" and again states in the actual suggestion "All defenders undergo vision checks during pass plays when..."

And I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the possibility of defenders biting on a scrambling QB. I know you don't agree, and that's fine. There's no point in arguing it because it's all hypothetical. If no one likes that part of the suggestion, I'll take it out. Otherwise I'm going to leave it in.

I don't see how it can be exploited. Yes, you can force the QB to tuck and run on a pass play, but all this suggestion does is slow down the immediate reaction of the defense to when that happens and occasionally (i.e. rarely/almost never for CBs or players with a pass focus and/or in man coverage) create a situation where a receiver is open. Worst case scenario, you get one play in a blue moon where a scrambling QB finds a WR wide open for a TD.

Can I see it being implemented horribly? Yes, but the intention of the suggestion is not for EVERY QB scramble to result in a big play or a wide open WR. It's simply to slow down the reaction of the defense and once in a while open up the potential for a passing play.

scrambling and running are two different things for the purpose of the sim. the defenders wont break off if the qb is scrambling because he still in pass mode. its when he decides to tuck and run that the def break off and treat the qb as a RB

Originally posted by Diamond Spade
scrambling and running are two different things for the purpose of the sim. the defenders wont break off if the qb is scrambling because he still in pass mode. its when he decides to tuck and run that the def break off and treat the qb as a RB

Yes I know that. I'm not exactly sure what your point is here...