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Forum > Suggestions > Nerf the "fall down after INT" for defensive players
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sicarius
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Originally posted by Dr. E
60 catching is hardly a lot of catching. I'd say it's good enough to make an extraordinary catch attempt that sells out the body and ends up with the dot on the ground.


Agreed, it's not a ton of Catching, and agreed it's good enough for the scenario you describe. That isn't the point of this suggestion though.
This is to keep a DB making a routine catch in space upright afterwards. There is no reason to make the dot sit down/stall on these balls.
 
Diamond Spade
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Originally posted by Dr. E
60 catching is hardly a lot of catching. I'd say it's good enough to make an extraordinary catch attempt that sells out the body and ends up with the dot on the ground.


well if 60 is enough then 90+ should be a walk in the park right? lol thats more then the majority of Wrs in GLB have anyway right?

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1986280&pbp_id=2099573



 
Ken1
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I can't believe anyone is still complaining about fumble returns. Before fumble returns were nerfed, every fumble was returned and a hell of a lot were returned for TDs. I've seen statistics that say that about 90% of fumbles in the NFL have no returns or negligible returns. They look a bit different from most of GLB's, because it's usually a pile underneath which someone has the ball; but the point is 90% of the time in real life there is no significant fumble return. Also on fumbles, coaches often want players to just fall on the ball, so as not to risk not gaining possession.

Interceptions are often returned in real life, but as someone who did the work pointed out, there were about as many picks in WL as the NFL last season-- close enough, anyway-- but about 3 times the Pick Sixes in the WL. While they didn't choose the exact solution I would have, and as with fumbles the way it happens doesn't happen through the same mechanism as real life, it at least moves the results closer to real life.

While I saw today someone intercept a pass, fall down, and then get up to return for some yards (it's not nearly as harsh as fumbles), they may have made it too hard, and instead of having 1/3 of the Pick Sixes they used to have it may turn out to be more like 1/10. If that happens, the amount of time down and the chance to fall down should be adjusted; it also gives a better reason than ever before to take the Never Give Up VA.

But it was a move in the right direction, and while I understand objections to this much more than to what was done with fumbles (having lots of fumble returns was purely silly), we should want the results to be a lot like real football, and I think they're doing a great job these last two seasons of moving in that direction.
 
merenoise
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Originally posted by Ken1
I can't believe anyone is still complaining about fumble returns. Before fumble returns were nerfed, every fumble was returned and a hell of a lot were returned for TDs. I've seen statistics that say that about 90% of fumbles in the NFL have no returns or negligible returns. They look a bit different from most of GLB's, because it's usually a pile underneath which someone has the ball; but the point is 90% of the time in real life there is no significant fumble return. Also on fumbles, coaches often want players to just fall on the ball, so as not to risk not gaining possession.

Interceptions are often returned in real life, but as someone who did the work pointed out, there were about as many picks in WL as the NFL last season-- close enough, anyway-- but about 3 times the Pick Sixes in the WL. While they didn't choose the exact solution I would have, and as with fumbles the way it happens doesn't happen through the same mechanism as real life, it at least moves the results closer to real life.

While I saw today someone intercept a pass, fall down, and then get up to return for some yards (it's not nearly as harsh as fumbles), they may have made it too hard, and instead of having 1/3 of the Pick Sixes they used to have it may turn out to be more like 1/10. If that happens, the amount of time down and the chance to fall down should be adjusted; it also gives a better reason than ever before to take the Never Give Up VA.

But it was a move in the right direction, and while I understand objections to this much more than to what was done with fumbles (having lots of fumble returns was purely silly), we should want the results to be a lot like real football, and I think they're doing a great job these last two seasons of moving in that direction.


You are right, never happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkOQftx5Ro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQWMjLiPR8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK36cEoC_g4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bLVe-lM5lQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjF1bOggy1w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjfp4YIpv-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueQfWT8kns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv89tkUXEp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1rcDBwlUqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p77l8U93Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWep6mpTg0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_tyTWZ2bDM
Edited by merenoise on Feb 24, 2012 20:36:51
 
merenoise
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p77l8U93Aw

In GLB right now not only would the fumble recovery for a TD not have happened, but on the pick six that led to the fumble would have resulted in the CB falling down.
 
Ken1
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Originally posted by merenoise
You are right, never happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkOQftx5Ro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQWMjLiPR8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK36cEoC_g4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bLVe-lM5lQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjF1bOggy1w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjfp4YIpv-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueQfWT8kns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv89tkUXEp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1rcDBwlUqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p77l8U93Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWep6mpTg0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_tyTWZ2bDM


If 10% of fumbles are returned for something not insignificant, and 10% of those go for TDs, and 100% of those are on YouTube (which they probably are) and if YouTube has great searching capability, it's not surprising that you could find those 1% of fumbles, which is plenty because there are 32 teams playing 16 regular season games each per year, plus preseason and postseason games, and many many years of which there is video, so there are a ton of games to draw from. Oh, and I didn't check, but if you have college or even high school games among those, there are many more games even than that to draw from.
 
merenoise
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Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by merenoise

You are right, never happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkOQftx5Ro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQWMjLiPR8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK36cEoC_g4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bLVe-lM5lQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjF1bOggy1w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjfp4YIpv-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KueQfWT8kns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv89tkUXEp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1rcDBwlUqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p77l8U93Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWep6mpTg0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_tyTWZ2bDM


If 10% of fumbles are returned for something not insignificant, and 10% of those go for TDs, and 100% of those are on YouTube (which they probably are) and if YouTube has great searching capability, it's not surprising that you could find those 1% of fumbles, which is plenty because there are 32 teams playing 16 regular season games each per year, plus preseason and postseason games, and many many years of which there is video, so there are a ton of games to draw from. Oh, and I didn't check, but if you have college or even high school games among those, there are many more games even than that to draw from.


Show me the 1% of fumbles returned for TDs last season in WL. You can't because they don't happen.

You like to pretend like there isn't a clear offensive slant to GLB which there is. I would argue that is good for GLB since no one likes to watch their players end up with box scores like these:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201201010den.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201109250cin.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201112040chi.htm

I mean clearly that is not a good representation of professional football.

Still there should be at least the opportunity for the defense to at least have the illusion of making a contribution. I linked a bunch of replays from the NFL from the last season showing fumble recoveries being returned for TDs. Please show me the WL equivalents.
 
merenoise
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BTW going with last season's NFL number's there were 650 fumbles and 31 TD returns so about 4%.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/opp.htm

When you can produce replays showing that 4% of the fumbles forced in WL last season were returned for TDs I will happily slink away with my tail between my legs. Until then please making up fake statistics to back up your ridiculous opinions. At least do the research before making grandiose claims that have 0 basis in reality. Thanks.
 
Ken1
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Originally posted by merenoise
You like to pretend like there isn't a clear offensive slant to GLB which there is.


There hasn't been. In seasons 24-25 yards per play were way lower than the NFL's. In season 26, it was close at the WL level (still slightly lower) and much lower at lower levels. There might be to some degree an offensive slant this upcoming season; if so, it will probably still be pretty close to real life, no more offensively slanted in season 27 than season 26 was defensively slanted.

Originally posted by merenoise
I would argue that is good for GLB


If so, you shouldn't complain about it so much.

Originally posted by merenoise
Still there should be at least the opportunity for the defense to at least have the illusion of making a contribution.


So, forcing a fumble and recovering it, even with no return, isn't a huge contribution? I'd certainly consider it one. The same with interceptions.

With fumbles, I'll admit that GLB doesn't accurately portray the 4% or so of fumbles that are returned for TDs. Before they changed things years ago, they didn't accurately portray the 90% of fumbles that aren't returned for any significant amount at all. I'd say the bigger error is in missing the 90%, not the 1%.

I already admitted with Pick Sixes that if they overshot the mark-- and they may have-- that next season they should rectify that. I actually understand it more with interceptions than with fumbles because interception returns are a significant part of real life football and some Pick Sixes have to occur or it's pretty ridiculous in the other direction. The few long fumble returns that occur in real life aren't enough to be a significant omission if not part of the game, at least IMO.

The defense is making a big play already when it forces and recovers a fumble or intercepts a pass, though; and you seem to want to pretend otherwise. Turnovers are already big.

Edit: Updated statistic.
Edited by Ken1 on Feb 24, 2012 21:42:59
 
Ken1
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Originally posted by merenoise
BTW going with last season's NFL number's there were 650 fumbles and 31 TD returns so about 4%.


The 10% of fumbles being returned significantly was a statistic I actually was given some years back by a credible source. My 10% of the 10% was just an estimate, I admit.
 
merenoise
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Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by merenoise

I would argue that is good for GLB


If so, you shouldn't complain about it so much.


First off WL scores look nothing like NFL scores, please show me the last Super Bowl that went 90-56. Hell, the only WL championship game that even marginally resembled a Super Bowl score was this one:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1826998

I'm primarily an OC. I'm not complaining about the inflated numbers the offense puts up. I am totally happy with it, if anything I think they should be inflated even more than they are.

I just think that an all out offense-fest where the defense and special teams can never score is just as boring as a 3-0 game. Scoring in GLB is all about the offense now, since defenses can't score on fumbles (I noticed you didn't even try to bother back tracking to show even a single fumble TD return in WL last season), and now can't score on interceptions or kick offs and punt returns what is the point of ever building anything but offensive dots?

I'd like to see defensive stats as inflated as offensive stats, and special teams stats also similarly inflated.

Maybe stop quoting statistics that you got third hand and pretending you have even a tenuous grasp on what happens at the higher levels of the game. Maybe peel yourself away from the statistics and watch a game or two. Or just pat yourself on the back for being such a super cool smart dude that can make up statistics and OC in Semi-Pro and quit making stuff up.
Edited by merenoise on Feb 24, 2012 22:08:57
 
TJ Spikes
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the "problem" with pick 6s has to do with where the INTs happen - especially relative to the NFL (since this seems to be the basis of the argument)

On the outside, a defender that makes a pick, doesn't have a lot of obstacles on his way into the endzone. If a defender makes a pick over the middle, he basically has to evade the entire offense on his way to the endzone.

The numbers of pick 6s in GLB is directly related to the outside deep ball due to the sim code penalty on deep throws, and the fact that in the current PBs, outside throwing is easier than throwing in the middle of the field.

In the NFL there are more pass routes "that work", therefore throwing over the middle is more common, and therefore more passes get intercepted over the middle.

This "problem" could have been addressed by opening up middle passing lanes, and/or decreasing the PQ penalty in the middle of the field which would incentivize throwing over the middle more, which would lead to more INTs over the middle, and the ratio of INTs to pick 6s would normalize.

Edited by TJ Spikes on Feb 24, 2012 22:23:43
 
Ken1
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Originally posted by merenoise
First off WL scores look nothing like NFL scores


Scores of the latest "week" of WL games, as of the time I'm writing this. They are preseason fwiw, but I don't think the regular season will look that different:

17-34, 40-3, 38-26, 6-18, 6-9, 15-34, 27-20, 23-20, 34-20, 20-23, 23-34, 6-24, 19-20, 34-20, 47-21, 17-24.

There are some quite high scores in there, and some quite low scores. They're probably slightly high overall, but not by much. In four games, a team was held without a touchdown. I'm not saying that's bad, just that it suggests offense isn't dominating.

Originally posted by merenoise
I just think that an all out offense-fest where the defense and special teams can never score is just as boring as a 3-0 game.


I agree that an all-out offense-fest is as boring as a 3-0 game. I don't see one in those WL scores. 47-21 seems to be the highest scoring game there. I wouldn't want to see scores like that every game, but for the highest scoring game of the "week," it's not extreme.

As far as the defense not scoring, for the most part that's how it should be. The defense's job is to prevent the offense from scoring, not to score itself. Prior to this season, there was way too much defensive scoring. I'm really not sure one way or the other about special teams. They didn't strike me as unrealistic before this season, but given the other moves' making things much more realistic, I'm inclined to give the devs the benefit of the doubt that STs were scoring too much.

Originally posted by merenoise
I'd like to see defensive stats as inflated as offensive stats, and special teams stats also similarly inflated.


I don't want any of the stats inflated. Average offenses in the NFL get 7 yards per pass attempt every year (7.1 in 2011):

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=2&season=2011&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true

Average offenses get 4 yards per rush attempt, year in and year out (slightly more in 2011):

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=2&season=2011&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true

Yards per rush attempt in GLB is hard to gauge, as GLB throws sacks in as the NCAA does, rather than keeping them out as the NFL does, and I never have found a site with much in NCAA stats. But in any event, my goals have always been something like real life stats, nothing more.

When average teams get those numbers in GLB, people complain that offensive stats are inflated, because the best players end up with higher stats than the best players in the NFL do-- but that's because there isn't NFL-style parity. My DE, whom you (probably correctly) said will never play in WL, got enough sacks to lead the NFL: http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2480480 (25 last season, compared to Jared Allen's NFL-leading 22).

For some reason, people don't complain when GLB players that are just reasonably good beat real life defensive leaders, but do when GLB players beat offensive leaders. That's what leads me to end up defending offenses as much as I do, as it's a dynamic pushing GLB toward defensive domination, as there was in seasons 24-25. Season 26 was much better, at least at top levels, and Season 27 may be spot on or may even be overly offensive. We'll see. But the answer even if so isn't inflating fumble and interception returns.
 
merenoise
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes

In the NFL there are more pass routes "that work", therefore throwing over the middle is more common, and therefore more passes get intercepted over the middle.

This "problem" could have been addressed by opening up middle passing lanes, and/or decreasing the PQ penalty in the middle of the field which would incentivize throwing over the middle more, which would lead to more INTs over the middle, and the ratio of INTs to pick 6s would normalize.





Originally posted by Ken1
As far as the defense not scoring, for the most part that's how it should be. The defense's job is to prevent the offense from scoring, not to score itself.


Completely off base as often the defenses who consistently put points up for their offense are the some of best in the NFL. Certainly the defenses that create the most points off of turnovers make the playoffs the most often. When you look at defenses like the Ravens who scored 10% of their TDs on defense last season you can kinda see how important those things are.

If you weren't busy making up statistics that were "relayed by my super secret but totally credible sources" ie your imagination you might have noticed that dynamic not just in the Pros but at all levels of football. You have no problem with elite offenses skewering the defense for highly inflated scores but if defenses or special teams score those points then you stamp your feet and make up stats.

I don't want to see examples from Semi-Pro, the dots aren't at end game builds and there simply aren't enough teams that are competitive with one another to make for any kind of meaningful data.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/

Instead of making up your own fallacious statistics, I implore you to show me the 4% of fumbles that were returned for TDs last season in WL. You simply can't, they don't exist. Or show me the 10% of interceptions that should be returned for TDs in WL scrims this season that correlates with the NFL numbers from last season. You can't because they don't exist.
Edited by merenoise on Feb 24, 2012 23:18:37
Edited by merenoise on Feb 24, 2012 23:17:14
 
Ken1
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Originally posted by merenoise

Instead of making up your own fallacious statistics,


You mean the ones I just linked to on the NFL site? Does the NFL make up its stats?

I'll show you the 10% of interceptions returned for TDs this season as soon as you show me the 16 WL teams that got over 7 yards per pass attempt in Season 24 or 25 (no, you can't add the two seasons together, although I doubt you'd get to 16 even if you did).


Edited by Ken1 on Feb 24, 2012 23:32:32
 
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