Warrior General Games

Originally posted by yello1
I have NO responsibility, because I didnt code the game in such a way as to allow results that are not in the range of NFL scoring. My responsibility is building a build that would give up 1 or 2 fumbles and not get good field position against a perfect ST squad in the NFL. It ends there, because thats all that would result in an NFL simulation. After that its all on bort and after that is what I am bitching about.

Stop blaming the player or the build for a bad system.

I think we have gone round the bend on this enough. You arent getting it. Get over your uber build and realize its (the complaint) is nothing to do with them or the DC, its the game systems basic math at generating chances for fumbles versus the chances that exist in reality.


How many times do we have to tell you that it is NOT just your build that is the problem??? How many????

It is NOT ONLY your responsibility to build a good dot BUT it is ALSO your responsibility to put that dot in a position to succeed. You are NOT doing the latter.

I specifically told you that your punt return team is SHIT. You have not made one change to the depth chart to try something new and fix the problem.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1667086&pbp_id=7830780

If a NFL team put that kind of garbage shit punt return blocking on the field their returner is going to get destroyed and cough up the ball. You should expect the same in this simulation, especially when you have a returner that is not optimized to avoid fumbles.

You coughed up two fumbles on punt returns in the Devonport game... both of those very well could have been prevented simply by having a better depth chart. The game should have consequences when you half-ass put effort into it.

Originally posted by yello1
Originally posted by beenlurken

There have been 17 punts returned for tds in the WL so far this season and WL teams average 13-14 yards per PR... as of a couple games ago there were 108 ST fumbles (probably near 120+ish now). Why would anyone at that level not call for a fair catch if it were an option? Granted there is less a fumble per game (and thats fumbles not fumbles lost) there but the chances of a td are so rare and whats the big deal about sacrificing 13-14 yards on every punt just to eliminate the potential of a turnover? You are just going to be eliminating punt returns from the game for the most part...

Kickoffs dont need to be touched... the fair catch/squib system you propose is pretty much already in place. Return team has the option not to return any kicks from the EZ (they risk not making it to the 20 and turning over by taking out) and the KO team has a choice of using a kick to kick into the EZ to discourage the return team from returning or using a kicker that keeps it in play that allows the gunners to do their work (but also gives up better field position and more potential for tds).

It really is fine the way it is... some just need to pay it a little more attention and it wont be a problem for them. The DevDev/OTM game was a perfect example today... OTM's risk/reward with their aggressive approach (returner built to make plays but vulnerable to FF's as a result... and strategy of returning out of the EZ instead of save "kneel") led to 3 fumbles and 3 return tds.

Look. Try to stop thinking and just listen.

If there is ever a 6 FF on returns, no matter WHAT you do on STs (barring putting your QB in there) then the system is not working because its not simulating pro football results.

It doesnt matter how I set the team up or how the build is done, because in all the 75 year history of the NFL all those crappy mistakes will have been made by someone, but yet the sheer nature of the game is such that they have NEVER given up that many FFs on returns in a game.

If your game allows it, then thats a broken simulation of pro football.

I dont know how else to explain it to you, you need to back up and realize that saying players should build a safety net for Borts bad system so it doesnt generate the broken results misses the point so badly as to make it sound like you are not listening.

The system should be the safety net for that, the system should be built to not allow 6FFs because the chances are not that high.

That said I do appreciate your tips. Its just that in a proper simulation those tips should be the difference between 0 FFs a gamer and 1 or 2 or 3, whatever the NFL range is. Not 0 or 6 (or 20).

Using your analogy, I am telling you that your punt return team is not the Browns... it is a high school blocking scheme going up against the Steelers/Pats (other parts of your game might be Pats vs Browns or even Pats vs Pats... but your punt return team is not NFL quality, even at its base). You should not expect NFL results out of that garbage.

That said, GLB will never be the NFL... I dont know how many times people have to say that to you... there is no telling how many times Bort/Catch/etc have said that in the forums. That is not their goal. If that bothers... just stop right now and leave... commit that rage quit you started the other day.

Yello... something else that you continue to ignore despite others attempts to explain to you is that you are just blindly looking at numbers out of context.

For example..

Your returner has had 148 returns (KR/PR) and coughed it up 10 times up to this point in the season

Last season (16 games)
Arizona had 126 returns and coughed it up 6 times
Dallas had 98 returns and coughed it up 7 times (worse fumble rate than your returner)
Buffalo had 101 returns and coughed it up 8 times (worse than your returner)
Denver had 90 returns and coughed it up 8 times (worse than your returner
Browns had 92 returns and coughed it up 7 times (worse than your returner)
Eagles had 100 returns and coughed it up 6 times (worse than your returner)

You wanted realistic well you have realistic... you want to argue that it is unrealistic that your returner fumbles 6 times in one game... well it was every bit as unrealistic that he only fumbled in 3 out of the 11 games played. By your logic for realism... if we prevent great teams from blowing up for 6 FF's in a game against an average team then the sim should be such that poor teams (who arent forcing any fumbles) should be able to muster up some (its is unrealistic for them to get goose-egged every game despite how poor their builds are at forcing fumbles). You also have to realize the sarcasm within this paragraph... to do what is described here would make dot building irrelevant.

Also, there are obviously a lot more plays in glb... another "unrealistic" aspect of the game... maybe you just need to suggest that more time is run off the clock for each play so that there are fewer overall plays and thus fewer overall possessions/scoring... less scoring means fewer returns means that maybe instead of doubling the average number of returns in a game with 13-14 per game you are down to the NFLish range of 6-7 per game. Fewer returns less opportunity for big fumble numbers in a game/season. This makes a whole lot more sense than the misguided bullshit that you are whining about. Sure, this idea wouldnt fly because the majority of players want to see higher scores than what are typically seen in the NFL... the want to see their dots play as many plays as they can and put up stats after spending all the time and money required to build a quality dot, regardless of whether you understand that or not.

Or maybe... just maybe... you need to fix your shit. We forced 6 fumbles on your team... with some very simple/basic alterations to your approach you could have limited the damage to 2 or 3 fumbles quite easily (maybe even less)... you could have limited the damage from Devonport to just 1 or 2 instead of 3. But no.. you would rather spend you time whining about the forums to nerf this instead of trying to figure out why you fumbled so much and what you could have done to prevent it.

Again, quit your damn whining and accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions!!

nm

Originally posted by beenlurken
Yello... something else that you continue to ignore despite others attempts to explain to you is that you are just blindly looking at numbers out of context.

For example..

Your returner has had 148 returns (KR/PR) and coughed it up 10 times up to this point in the season

Last season (16 games)
Arizona had 126 returns and coughed it up 6 times
Dallas had 98 returns and coughed it up 7 times (worse fumble rate than your returner)
Buffalo had 101 returns and coughed it up 8 times (worse than your returner)
Denver had 90 returns and coughed it up 8 times (worse than your returner
Browns had 92 returns and coughed it up 7 times (worse than your returner)
Eagles had 100 returns and coughed it up 6 times (worse than your returner)

You wanted realistic well you have realistic... you want to argue that it is unrealistic that your returner fumbles 6 times in one game... well it was every bit as unrealistic that he only fumbled in 3 out of the 11 games played. By your logic for realism... if we prevent great teams from blowing up for 6 FF's in a game against an average team then the sim should be such that poor teams (who arent forcing any fumbles) should be able to muster up some (its is unrealistic for them to get goose-egged every game despite how poor their builds are at forcing fumbles). You also have to realize the sarcasm within this paragraph... to do what is described here would make dot building irrelevant.

Also, there are obviously a lot more plays in glb... another "unrealistic" aspect of the game... maybe you just need to suggest that more time is run off the clock for each play so that there are fewer overall plays and thus fewer overall possessions/scoring... less scoring means fewer returns means that maybe instead of doubling the average number of returns in a game with 13-14 per game you are down to the NFLish range of 6-7 per game. Fewer returns less opportunity for big fumble numbers in a game/season. This makes a whole lot more sense than the misguided bullshit that you are whining about. Sure, this idea wouldnt fly because the majority of players want to see higher scores than what are typically seen in the NFL... the want to see their dots play as many plays as they can and put up stats after spending all the time and money required to build a quality dot, regardless of whether you understand that or not.

Or maybe... just maybe... you need to fix your shit. We forced 6 fumbles on your team... with some very simple/basic alterations to your approach you could have limited the damage to 2 or 3 fumbles quite easily (maybe even less)... you could have limited the damage from Devonport to just 1 or 2 instead of 3. But no.. you would rather spend you time whining about the forums to nerf this instead of trying to figure out why you fumbled so much and what you could have done to prevent it.

Again, quit your damn whining and accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions!!


When looking for pointers on my ST DC in those threads, I see some were taking my not responding to your posts as conceding the point. Error. I just didn't want the flaming to continue so I skipped my terse sign off on the subject. I like OPL and am annoyed at myself for getting into the flame fest and wanted to put paid to it.

I see, though, that I should have responded (and read your posts) since this is an interesting post right here.

Here is why I am still right, despite the figures stated.

And it basically comes down to a point YOU made. Most of my games have been against lesser ST teams. When I meet a competitive squad, or lets face it a decidedly BETTER squad - thats when the numbers ramp up to the silly figures.

And its for that same reason that the fumbles ramp down to below NFL norms when I face a less competitive ST team. And on the flip side, returns for TDs go ridiculously up.

The numbers you point out are part and parcel with my point - its not NFL simulation acceptable results.

The WHOLE thing needs to be fixed. Not just the parts that make my team lose, but the ones that sometimes gift us a win as well.

Originally posted by beenlurken
Using your analogy, I am telling you that your punt return team is not the Browns... it is a high school blocking scheme going up against the Steelers/Pats (other parts of your game might be Pats vs Browns or even Pats vs Pats... but your punt return team is not NFL quality, even at its base). You should not expect NFL results out of that garbage.

That said, GLB will never be the NFL... I dont know how many times people have to say that to you... there is no telling how many times Bort/Catch/etc have said that in the forums. That is not their goal. If that bothers... just stop right now and leave... commit that rage quit you started the other day.

The blocking schemes are set by the system.

The only difference is the personnel. And no one in a league of co-level should be soooo much worse or better than any one else that such disparate non-NFL result follows.

Thats the whole point. You don't get it, seem incapable of grasping it, but thats it. NO ONE at level 72 who has spent their SPs should be vastly inferior to any other level 72 player, or in that Pro Level range. Why? Because you are simulating the Pros and the pros are where those say 69 to 75 level players exist. They therefore CANT be that much better or worse and let your simulation work. So you have to scale the performance effect of stats such that a 75 is BETTER but not Super Bowl MVP versus High School better.

As for the gameplanning point, gameplans are all well and good but on the field the players make them work and compensate when they are off (EDIT the game plan is off, aka sucks I mean). So to a large extent its the same issue, you need to have the universe of build performance reduced to the point that better is better but not infinitely dominant to ridiculous results.

Beyond that, the "game day" coaching element of the game, the "Auto Adjust" etc needs to be improved. If your O is running into a brick wall and your D is leaving a receiver open every down, the game needs to adjust to correct for that in some fashion just as a real coach would but GLB players can not easily do. That too needs to be improved. But ST play has no game plan and therefore that isnt relevant to the FF KRTD situation.

And no many how many people can not comprehend that, they are all still very wrong.

And yes the game CAN simulate the NFL. It just has to want to. And given the marketing and the market, it really should want to.

Originally posted by beenlurken
How many times do we have to tell you that it is NOT just your build that is the problem??? How many????

It is NOT ONLY your responsibility to build a good dot BUT it is ALSO your responsibility to put that dot in a position to succeed. You are NOT doing the latter.

I specifically told you that your punt return team is SHIT. You have not made one change to the depth chart to try something new and fix the problem.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1667086&pbp_id=7830780

If a NFL team put that kind of garbage shit punt return blocking on the field their returner is going to get destroyed and cough up the ball. You should expect the same in this simulation, especially when you have a returner that is not optimized to avoid fumbles.

You coughed up two fumbles on punt returns in the Devonport game... both of those very well could have been prevented simply by having a better depth chart. The game should have consequences when you half-ass put effort into it.



Okay I thought you were right, thought I had not gotten around to it - but I actually HAD.

And you obviously ARE right since my KR is 1st and my PR 19th in the league. (Right as to the DC being not effective, still wrong as to how much that should be allowed to cause the stats to vary from NFL norms)

But HOW is that so?

Keeping in mind the Centers are STOP players, whats wrong with the Punt Return ST DC I am using? Apparently I do in fact not get it. Seems the same as my KR set up - same personnel - why is it not working?

Quickly if you can - I have a OPL Versus tourney game in a couple of hours.

Hmm okay I have found a PR guide and my PR DC that I have had since these discussions began (and the infamous 6 drop game) is in fact consistent with that guide, to the specific stats and skill sets almost to a Tee.

So there is even less reason that makes sense for the noted results. Player build is good and so is the DC (unless there is a new and improved guide). So WTF does he drop the ball or more importantly not get alot of PR yardage? Hang Time aside of course, cant do much about that (or can you???).

I guess there is no reason for you to stop posting on this subject... at this point its not like it can get any worse for you.


If you cant look at the play that I linked before...

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1667086&pbp_id=7830780

... and not recognize immediately what the problem is then you have no business having an opinion on ST.


Why you would rather trust someone elses garbage PR guide over what common sense would tell you just from looking at that replay is beyond me. I mean, come on, the only person agreeing with you is the "suggestions forum idiot/troll", rocomo.

You have had a good majority of the very successful ST coordinators in this game tell you that the problem is you throughout your multiple whine threads... not one of them has agreed with you... yet you still continue this crusade. Why?


That said, your biggest problem in failing to comprehend what many have tried to explain to you in various ways is that you place way too much emphasis on LOL effective levels in the game. Do you not understand how those numbers are derived? Do you not understand that you can put 1000 sps into two players of the same position, have the same effective level (sps determine effective level), yet have two COMPLETELY different builds? Why would anyone put any emphasis into fumble avoidance when the game (by your designs) handicaps HH'er builds such that you can only fumble 2-3 times a game? That is applicable to any other interaction in the game... what is the point of building to avoid pancakes when the game will only allow you to be pancaked "x" amount of times (regardless of your build or the dot trying to pancake)... I could go on and on...


Lastly, I dont know how many times people have to say to you, but what you are suggesting is nerfing player building. What is the point of building dots when you reach end-game and the sim is handicapped such that teams of shitty end builds/gameplanning/strategy can be competitive with teams full of great builds/gameplanning/strategy. Yes said teams will both have an effective level of 74/75ish because there end game builds have roughly the same average sp value but that is not any kind of indication how the teams will fair against one another.

damn i'm almost out of popcorn, somebody fill me up!

tl;dr version please?

Originally posted by beenlurken
I guess there is no reason for you to stop posting on this subject... at this point its not like it can get any worse for you.


If you cant look at the play that I linked before...

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1667086&pbp_id=7830780

... and not recognize immediately what the problem is then you have no business having an opinion on ST.


Why you would rather trust someone elses garbage PR guide over what common sense would tell you just from looking at that replay is beyond me. I mean, come on, the only person agreeing with you is the "suggestions forum idiot/troll", rocomo.

You have had a good majority of the very successful ST coordinators in this game tell you that the problem is you throughout your multiple whine threads... not one of them has agreed with you... yet you still continue this crusade. Why?


That said, your biggest problem in failing to comprehend what many have tried to explain to you in various ways is that you place way too much emphasis on LOL effective levels in the game. Do you not understand how those numbers are derived? Do you not understand that you can put 1000 sps into two players of the same position, have the same effective level (sps determine effective level), yet have two COMPLETELY different builds? Why would anyone put any emphasis into fumble avoidance when the game (by your designs) handicaps HH'er builds such that you can only fumble 2-3 times a game? That is applicable to any other interaction in the game... what is the point of building to avoid pancakes when the game will only allow you to be pancaked "x" amount of times (regardless of your build or the dot trying to pancake)... I could go on and on...


Lastly, I dont know how many times people have to say to you, but what you are suggesting is nerfing player building. What is the point of building dots when you reach end-game and the sim is handicapped such that teams of shitty end builds/gameplanning/strategy can be competitive with teams full of great builds/gameplanning/strategy. Yes said teams will both have an effective level of 74/75ish because there end game builds have roughly the same average sp value but that is not any kind of indication how the teams will fair against one another.



I don't need anyone to listen to me to be right, truth is not a democracy.

What does seem clear is that most people that would inherently get the point already quit this crap simulation and the ones that left are fans of stupid silly high stats and so in love with their 1337 build powers as to take offense at any suggestion they may be benefitting from a crappy program.

As to effective level and different builds, yes of course. But the point you refuse to grok is that BOTH of those builds, and their interaction with each other, have to be within the range of NFL players "builds" and NFL results - because thats what they and their interaction is simulating. If it doesn't, then the coding that allowed and compared the builds is wrong. Not the builds. Not to say that one build cant consistently beat the other. But it can only do it in the NFL range.

And its NOT nerfing, its FIXING a bad simulation. FFS Bort even has Beta in the game title. Nothing in this game right now is some mystical mountain of authenticity that is perfect as it is. Its a pile of made up numbers, totally and completely made up. By someone who doesn't even KNOW that much about Football at that from what I gather. To be in love with things as they are is pretty silly, particularly since Bort changes it constantly - and is indeed changing this section of the game at seasons end as well.

As far as the guide, I thought listening to others is how one is supposed to learn this secret game? Isn't it how you learned to build your squad?

And no I didn't watch the play, because no play is relevant to the point - which is all about the end stats. No play in the game should lead to these stats, period. Because those stats fall outside the realm of what happens in the sport being modelled.

But we have been over this before. You are wrong, even though you refuse to admit it.

As for the play, I will check that out since like it or not its the sim we have at the moment.....

Originally posted by bug03
tl;dr version please?

Essentially a debate between wanting the simulation to be more accurate versus defending the status quo and blaming all simulation errors on the players.

i think lurken is basically saying, it's a game not real life, instead of complaining about the way it is, you should fix some things to adapt to the way it is, even if it sucks.....is that good for the tl'dr???